German term
spinnefremd
"Die Berliner sind einander spinnefremd. Wenn sie sich nicht irgendwo vorgestellt sind, knurren sie sich in der Straße und in den Bahnen an, denn sie haben miteinander nicht viel Gemeinsames. Sie wollen voneinander nichts wissen, und jeder lebt ganz für sich."
From a Kurt Tucholsky satirical text on Berliners from the Berliner Tageblatt in 1919.
I think this term is a play on the word "spinnefeind" but cannot come up with such wordplay in English and so far have only explained it as 'being complete and utter strangers to one another'.
Many thanks for any help !
found this: | Jonathan MacKerron |
Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "German to English" to "English to German"
Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "English to German" to "German to English"
Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "German to English" to "English to German"
Mar 7, 2012 11:14: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "English to German" to "German to English"
Mar 7, 2012 11:22: Jonathan MacKerron changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (3): Steffen Walter, Coqueiro, Jonathan MacKerron
When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.
How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:
An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)
A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).
Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.
When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.
* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.
Proposed translations
arch strangers
agree |
Lancashireman
: 'arch stranger' as opposed to 'arch enemy' - excellent choice for this context
1 hr
|
Thank you, Andrew.
|
|
agree |
BrigitteHilgner
: I like this very much - I think it get's Tucho's idea across.
3 hrs
|
Thank you, Brigitte.
|
|
neutral |
Helen Shiner
: The problem with 'arch' for me is that is sounds as if they have one eyebrow raised in a playful manner, though I appreciate what you've tried to do. It just is not strong enough for me because of this competing meaning.
4 hrs
|
Well, as I said, it is just a possibility for retaining some of the word play element and trying not to end up translating spinnefeind instead of Tucholsky's term.
|
|
agree |
Horst Huber (X)
: Certainly a good way of conveying Tucholksy's pun.
4 hrs
|
Thank you, Horst
|
|
agree |
KKMoe (X)
1 day 5 hrs
|
Thank you!
|
hate each other's guts/xenophobic
the first suggestion is the idiomatic, but I prefer xenophobic because of the urban, claustrophobic inferrence - reminds me of NYC
bitter strangers
wary of each other
agree |
Karinwigele
: unsociable, introverted. Some of the descriptions seem overly harsh to me.
4 days
|
are totally alien to each other
avoid one another like poison
Berliners avoid one another like poison.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-03-07 12:05:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Berliners keep a hostile distance from one another.
agree |
Maren Mentor
: Besonders der zweite Vorschlag gefällt mir.
1 hr
|
Thanks, Maren
|
|
neutral |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: the source term is not feind but fremd/hmm. "avoid" or "hostile"=fremd?
5 hrs
|
Thanks, Johanna; I can read!! I do wonder if you, though, have actually read my answer./Yes, avoid - fremd sein wollen. And the spinne element of the term? I really see no problem with my suggestion of hostile for that. Spiders eat one another.
|
Berliners are Berlinerphobes
Berliners hate Berliners they don't know
estranged from one another
ant- agonistic
Like a red flag to a bull, two rumblefish in a bowl...
I was trying to find animal idioms which come close to spinnefremd since obviously there is no equivalent of spinnefeind in English (at least not to my knowledge) which would immediately ring a bell if slightly changed.
This is a word invention by Tucholsky and combines two qualities concerning spiders.
They tend to and care about their own net (they don't share a net) in which they are "entangled" in and they are loners . They may have their nets next to each other but remain for themselves (fremd). One may catch flies , another may catch wasps busy with themselves. On the other hand when they meet sometimes there can be deadly fights (the play on spinnefeind).
I think ant-agonistic works well here and made me really laugh ...
We all know the meaning of antagonistic which seemes appropriate here but on top of that it immediately evokes an image of two fighting ants (when they are from different colonies) . Those two will always be alien to each other only caring for their own (colony)business though being the same animal.
Up to you but this one's nice me thinks :)))
far be it for the Berliners to stand on niceties
Reference comments
found this:
»Jenny Erpenbecks Figuren sind vom Unglück begünstigt, doch am Ende leider tot. Erpenbecks Geschichten erzählen von Subjekten, die gegeneinander spinnefremd und verschlossen sind in ihrem jeweiligen unglücklichen Bewusstsein. Die sich im Belauschen, im misstrauischen Abhorchen bis in den Schlaf verlieren, sich nichts trauen, nie kühn den Ausbruch wagen. „Daß ich immer nur sehen darf und dieses Sehen mich schon ganz vergiftet hat“, heißt es einmal sehr schön. Leider geht es mit den Texten ebenso, die ein sentenziöser Blick regiert, sodass sie immer nur symbolisieren müssen und dieses Symbolisieren sie schon ganz vergiftet hat.«
(Bemerkenswert: Der besprochene Text „Der Balladenrest vom Fest“ ist offenbar in herkömmlicher Rechtschreibung, die Rezension reformiert.)
Noch etwas zum reformschrieblichen Spinnefeind: Die TAZ hat sogar einen Beleg für eine substantivische Verwendung hinbekommen – allerdings schon vor der Umstellung, wie die s-Schreibung zeigt (Quelle: wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de):
»Der Fifa-Boß droht seinem Spinnefeind Pelé sogar mit dem Ausschluß Brasiliens von der WM 1998. (Quelle: TAZ 1997)«
Laut dem Leipziger Wortschatzlexikon hat es die WELT fertiggebracht, im Jahr 2000 über die Wiederkleinschreibung von spinnefeind zu berichten, es im nächsten Jahr dann aber doch groß zu schreiben (siehe hier).
agree |
Helen Shiner
: Good research
24 mins
|
agree |
Coqueiro
42 mins
|
agree |
Clive Phillips
: Outstanding! Thanks, Jonathan
4 hrs
|
Discussion
A distinctive memory of my four years in Berlin in the '70s was of daunting vicious elderly ladies at the bus stop jabbing you in the ribs with their umbrellas as they fought to get on the bus first.
http://www.sprichwoerter-redewendungen.de/redewendungen/sich...
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/spinnefeind
http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=106628...
How's that?
"the Berlins don't even attempt to be civil with each other" /"there is no love lost between Berliners"