Mar 7, 2012 10:58
12 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

spinnefremd

German to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
http://www.textlog.de/tucholsky-berlin.html

"Die Berliner sind einander spinnefremd. Wenn sie sich nicht irgendwo vorgestellt sind, knurren sie sich in der Straße und in den Bahnen an, denn sie haben miteinander nicht viel Gemeinsames. Sie wollen voneinander nichts wissen, und jeder lebt ganz für sich."

From a Kurt Tucholsky satirical text on Berliners from the Berliner Tageblatt in 1919.

I think this term is a play on the word "spinnefeind" but cannot come up with such wordplay in English and so far have only explained it as 'being complete and utter strangers to one another'.

Many thanks for any help !
Change log

Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "German to English" to "English to German"

Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "English to German" to "German to English"

Mar 7, 2012 11:12: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "German to English" to "English to German"

Mar 7, 2012 11:14: jen_stringer32 changed "Language pair" from "English to German" to "German to English"

Mar 7, 2012 11:22: Jonathan MacKerron changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Steffen Walter, Coqueiro, Jonathan MacKerron

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Discussion

Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 7, 2012:
@BrigitteHilgner OUCH! I guess I'm just too polite! Although "touch me and you're dead" has been known to cross my lips. But I rather like spiders.
Clive Phillips Mar 7, 2012:
Combining Nicola's and Andrew's excellent answers To each other, Berliners are wary (or leery/chary/distrustful) arch strangers.
A distinctive memory of my four years in Berlin in the '70s was of daunting vicious elderly ladies at the bus stop jabbing you in the ribs with their umbrellas as they fought to get on the bus first.
BrigitteHilgner Mar 7, 2012:
@ Ramey I like the idea of the ten foot pole (as distance between me and any spider) but judging by the following suggestions that's quite harmless. Don't approach me or I'll eat you seems to be the underlying message. ;-)
http://www.sprichwoerter-redewendungen.de/redewendungen/sich...
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/spinnefeind
http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=106628...
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 7, 2012:
@ BrigitteHilgner loathe and avoid each other? "Can't come within smelling distance of each other" "wouldn't touch each other with a ten foot pole"
How's that?
Helen Shiner Mar 7, 2012:
@Andrew Perhaps it depends on how mean the spider is. Seriously, though, what additional meaning does Tucholsky bring to this expression by adding 'spinne'? Einander fremd sein wollen would be more in line with what you are suggesting.
Lancashireman Mar 7, 2012:
spinnefremd v spinnefeindlich Spinnefremd: "Sie wollen voneinander nichts wissen" (see context). Not quite as strong as 'spinnefeindlich', IMO.
BrigitteHilgner Mar 7, 2012:
loathe and avoid each other Can that be run into one word in English? I'd love to see it.
Jonathan MacKerron Mar 7, 2012:
there is a sense of alieanation among Berliners "Berliners simply don't like each other" / "there is nothing touchy-feely about the Berliners" (modern context)
"the Berlins don't even attempt to be civil with each other" /"there is no love lost between Berliners"
Di Anna (X) Mar 7, 2012:
don't want to know each other I'm not native in English but in German. I agree that its about being sth like "hostile strangers". People in Berlin don't know each other and they don't want to know each other.
Jonathan MacKerron Mar 7, 2012:
could care less about each other "can't stand the sight of each other", particularly if a pun for "spinnefeind"
jen_stringer32 (asker) Mar 7, 2012:
How do I reclassify this post as PRO ? I'm new to Proz !

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

arch strangers

Considering the possibility of arch enemies for spinnefeind, then this might be a possibiility. It does sound unusual, but I think it could evoke a similar response to the German, which is also striking because it is not a common term.
Peer comment(s):

agree Lancashireman : 'arch stranger' as opposed to 'arch enemy' - excellent choice for this context
1 hr
Thank you, Andrew.
agree BrigitteHilgner : I like this very much - I think it get's Tucho's idea across.
3 hrs
Thank you, Brigitte.
neutral Helen Shiner : The problem with 'arch' for me is that is sounds as if they have one eyebrow raised in a playful manner, though I appreciate what you've tried to do. It just is not strong enough for me because of this competing meaning.
4 hrs
Well, as I said, it is just a possibility for retaining some of the word play element and trying not to end up translating spinnefeind instead of Tucholsky's term.
agree Horst Huber (X) : Certainly a good way of conveying Tucholksy's pun.
4 hrs
Thank you, Horst
agree KKMoe (X)
1 day 5 hrs
Thank you!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
41 mins

hate each other's guts/xenophobic

I love Tucholsky!

the first suggestion is the idiomatic, but I prefer xenophobic because of the urban, claustrophobic inferrence - reminds me of NYC
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52 mins

bitter strangers

And for spinnefeind I would suggest bitter enemies.
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+1
1 hr
German term (edited): einander spinnefremd

wary of each other

Based on the context, the discussion and the reference provided by JM.
Peer comment(s):

agree Karinwigele : unsociable, introverted. Some of the descriptions seem overly harsh to me.
4 days
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1 hr

are totally alien to each other

-
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+1
1 hr

avoid one another like poison

Since spinnefeind can mean 'to hate something like poison', I wonder if this would work?

Berliners avoid one another like poison.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-03-07 12:05:31 GMT)
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Berliners keep a hostile distance from one another.
Peer comment(s):

agree Maren Mentor : Besonders der zweite Vorschlag gefällt mir.
1 hr
Thanks, Maren
neutral Johanna Timm, PhD : the source term is not feind but fremd/hmm. "avoid" or "hostile"=fremd?
5 hrs
Thanks, Johanna; I can read!! I do wonder if you, though, have actually read my answer./Yes, avoid - fremd sein wollen. And the spinne element of the term? I really see no problem with my suggestion of hostile for that. Spiders eat one another.
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1 hr

Berliners are Berlinerphobes

as in "arachnophobes"
Peer comment(s):

neutral BrigitteHilgner : RATHER stilted.
7 mins
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1 hr

Berliners hate Berliners they don't know

The word seems to imply that they are strangers and want to keep it that way out of hostility.
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3 hrs

estranged from one another

Suggests a sense of alienation without implying deliberate enmity. As such, slightly less emotive than the source term.
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3 hrs

ant- agonistic

ant- agonistic :))))
Like a red flag to a bull, two rumblefish in a bowl...

I was trying to find animal idioms which come close to spinnefremd since obviously there is no equivalent of spinnefeind in English (at least not to my knowledge) which would immediately ring a bell if slightly changed.

This is a word invention by Tucholsky and combines two qualities concerning spiders.
They tend to and care about their own net (they don't share a net) in which they are "entangled" in and they are loners . They may have their nets next to each other but remain for themselves (fremd). One may catch flies , another may catch wasps busy with themselves. On the other hand when they meet sometimes there can be deadly fights (the play on spinnefeind).

I think ant-agonistic works well here and made me really laugh ...

We all know the meaning of antagonistic which seemes appropriate here but on top of that it immediately evokes an image of two fighting ants (when they are from different colonies) . Those two will always be alien to each other only caring for their own (colony)business though being the same animal.
Up to you but this one's nice me thinks :)))
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5 hrs

far be it for the Berliners to stand on niceties

yet another
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Reference comments

33 mins
Reference:

found this:

Neben dem gelegentlichen spinnefeind gibt es noch das ganz seltene spinnefremd, eine Erfindung Tucholskys, wie mir scheint („Berlin! Berlin!“). Einen weiteren Beleg dafür aus der Literaturbeilage der ZEIT findet man nur noch in Googles Cache:
»Jenny Erpenbecks Figuren sind vom Unglück begünstigt, doch am Ende leider tot. Erpenbecks Geschichten erzählen von Subjekten, die gegeneinander spinnefremd und verschlossen sind in ihrem jeweiligen unglücklichen Bewusstsein. Die sich im Belauschen, im misstrauischen Abhorchen bis in den Schlaf verlieren, sich nichts trauen, nie kühn den Ausbruch wagen. „Daß ich immer nur sehen darf und dieses Sehen mich schon ganz vergiftet hat“, heißt es einmal sehr schön. Leider geht es mit den Texten ebenso, die ein sentenziöser Blick regiert, sodass sie immer nur symbolisieren müssen und dieses Symbolisieren sie schon ganz vergiftet hat.«
(Bemerkenswert: Der besprochene Text „Der Balladenrest vom Fest“ ist offenbar in herkömmlicher Rechtschreibung, die Rezension reformiert.)

Noch etwas zum reformschrieblichen Spinnefeind: Die TAZ hat sogar einen Beleg für eine substantivische Verwendung hinbekommen – allerdings schon vor der Umstellung, wie die s-Schreibung zeigt (Quelle: wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de):
»Der Fifa-Boß droht seinem Spinnefeind Pelé sogar mit dem Ausschluß Brasiliens von der WM 1998. (Quelle: TAZ 1997)«
Laut dem Leipziger Wortschatzlexikon hat es die WELT fertiggebracht, im Jahr 2000 über die Wiederkleinschreibung von spinnefeind zu berichten, es im nächsten Jahr dann aber doch groß zu schreiben (siehe hier).
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Helen Shiner : Good research
24 mins
agree Coqueiro
42 mins
agree Clive Phillips : Outstanding! Thanks, Jonathan
4 hrs
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