Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

Capigorrón

English translation:

Vagabond; wanderer, or leave as Capigorrón with an explanation (see notes)

Added to glossary by Kathleen Misson
Nov 16, 2022 19:47
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
Spanish term

Capigorrón

Spanish to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Esos de gran ropaje los nobles, aquellos zánganos de capa y cintas, los Capigorrones, ese grupo con traje, los Camaristas y esos otros que están perdidos los Pupilos.

Francisco de Quevedo -No puedo, soy un Capigorrón y el orden de asientos es: noble, colegial, camarista, pupilo y capigorrón.

-Capigorrón, es decir pobre...

Por cierto, soy Quevedo, Francisco de Quevedo y muchos de estos capigorrones llegaremos a ser grandes eruditos de la historia.

Discussion

Andrew Bramhall Nov 20, 2022:
@Domini I tend to agree with your assessment; the term 'capigorrón' seems to be based on an archetypal figure of the period, and classical Spanish Golden Age drama and literature is crammed full of such archetypes,like the 'pícaro' himself, whose original meaning may have become watered down over the centuries as such figures receeded evermore into the increasingly distant past. And yes, all in all, a fascinating and fruitful discussion.
Domini Lucas Nov 19, 2022:
ecclesiastics and students there could have been much more of an overlap than we would expect today anyway as the church was much more part of things. It's one of the reasons I favoured leaving it in Spanish in this instance, even more so since knowing it's for a tourist guide as it won't be the only term left in Spanish. @Andrew Bramhall there used to be one such professor participating in KudoZ who would have been able to resolve this in a jiffy, but he doesn't seem to be involved these days, more the pity. Had thought of trying to contact him. @all Interested we are still continuing the conversation despite the deadline having expired. I love having some olde worlde stuff to chew on. Hope it makes the glossaries. The era was my passion years ago, but sadly my Uni notes and most books were devoured by a flood in my mum's basement some time ago!
O G V Nov 18, 2022:
noble, colegial, camarista, pupilo y capigorrón. es una lista muy propia del entorno académico de la época y no incluye a ningún religioso
@Kathleen, ¿puedes poner una imagen o extracto de la guía o algún lugar donde verla?
a ver si salimos de dudas o lo tenemos al menos algo más claro
pero estas referencias aluden a estudiantey su vcriado
interior de su estrato ya que se trata de un lacayo (Ocafia), de un paje (Quifiones) y de un criado capigorrôn
Cristina es una fregona o Quinones un paje o sefialar a los sefiores con el "don" o al estudiante y a su capigorrôn
Por ejemplo en la siguiente acotaciôn: Entran CARDENIO, con manteo y sotana, y tras él TORRENTE, capigorrôn
El manteo y la sotana eran prendas habituâtes de los estudiantes;9 en el caso del vestido del capigorrôn

no nos confunda esa sotana, que no sería de clérigo
patinba Nov 18, 2022:
Further to my "acolyte" posting I checked the 1936 DRAE, and the example cited to illustrate the use of capigorrón as a minor eclesiastic is by, guess who? Quevedo!
2. Dícese del que tiene órdenes .menores r se mantiene así sin pasar a las mayores. U. t. c. s. '1 «A
todo capigorrón, o lo que fuere. canónigo o arcediano.» Quevedo, Obr., ed. Rív.• t. 23, p. 327.
O G V Nov 18, 2022:
habría que ver la guía entera el término se registra tanto para estos ayudantes como para ciertos clérigos, pero el texto se encuadra en ambiente estudiantil
además, la alusión a capigorrón en una obra de verdad de Quevedo no sé si sirve de mucho aquí porque se trataría de una recreación o ambientación no de una reconstrucción fidedigna o rigurosa.
pero habría que saber cómo es la guía
Andrew Bramhall Nov 18, 2022:
My former university professor in Spanish,.. ....now retired Emeritus professor living in Catalonia, a Golden Age specialist and published author on Quevedo, had this to say when I sent him the question link:

"Near the beginning of La Perinola, Quevedo uses the word capigorrón to criticise Juan Pérez de Montalbán for mixing everything up, comparing him to the diverse travellers in the coach from Alcalá to Madrid, which include "el capigorrón con el fraile." Here, at least, he seems to be referring to the ecclesiastical meaning, more than the university one.But I couldn't find the word in Casa de los locos de amor, which I'm pretty sure I've now read in its entirety for the first time. Which means I'm not being helpful, I'm afraid. As for the offerings made to proz.com, I guess the age of the piece that's being translated has a lot to do with the word you might choose, as well as the context."
O G V Nov 17, 2022:
pues yo pensé que podía ser una obra ambientada en época de Quevedo, con el léxico y el habla propios de entonces.
para una guía turística, tiene mucho aire literario o al menos un vocabulario muy elaborado,
Domini Lucas Nov 17, 2022:
@Kathleen Misson I would never have guessed it was a tourist guide, though I can see why it might feature. All the best with it. :-)
Kathleen Misson (asker) Nov 17, 2022:
Capigorrón Thank you all very much for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. Vagabond is close but doesn't quite fit because in English, vagabonds were homeless people, not university students. Domini, it's a tourist guide. Deadline this morning.
Domini Lucas Nov 17, 2022:
also re tone of picaresque: cheeky, witty touch https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-... Quevedo the novelist is perhaps best known through his picaresque novel La vida del buscón (1626; Paul the Sharperor The Scavenger), in which he followed the usual episodic pattern of the picaresque novel, intermixing sardonic wit. In this novel he sought to entertain, to ridicule, and to hold up fraud and dishonesty to scorn, but he rarely moralized directly, as did other picaresque novelists of his time. ... Translations of Quevedo into English are difficult to find. A translation of El buscón, entitled The Scavenger, was done by Hugh H. Harter in 1962. This volume contains an introduction expressly for the American reader.
Domini Lucas Nov 17, 2022:
Play? @Kathleen Misson Is this is a play? And how urgent is it? I've found a 1928 translation of some Golden Age picaresque short stories in my bookcase and may find something extra, but will need a few days...
Domini Lucas Nov 16, 2022:
zángano the Appleton dictionary I quoted has idler, sponger for zángano. I just wonder if the sentence could be re-worked to either retain the Spanish terms or explain them. Of the top of my head, sth like "those idlers/low-lifes/scroungers wearing/sporting ribboned capes/gowns, the Capigorrones..." Or "those wanderers in their ribboned capes..." Appletons definition of gorrón is also sponger, parasite, libertine. Quevedo wrote a picaresque novel called La vida del buscón which according to the britannica reference has been translated as "The Life of a Scoundrel". I also can't help thinking of the la Tuna song Las cintas de mi capa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rcr4tSp_lc the tuna orginally being students who wandered about singing to eat. The vagabond and student are linked here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuna. More context would help with improving the off-the-cuff thoughts.
Domini Lucas Nov 16, 2022:
not fag I would avoid "fag" as it is v British public school specific and can be linked with bullying, especially these days. Also has had other offensive connotations. As well as being specific to boarding school, the offence it could cause sounds stronger than the original to me. My Quevedo era knowledge is rusty, but I don´t read this as having a purely pejorative tone as he refers it to himself. I also wonder if it is more picaresque , i.e. the negatives can also carry a tongue-in-cheek/satirical tone. https://www.britannica.com/art/picaresque-novel The picaresque might roll the wandering/vagabond, scrounger and student elements all into one. See also https://www.britannica.com/biography/Francisco-Gomez-de-Quev... The bulk of his satirical writings were aimed at specific abuses of the day and are no longer of interest, but he is remembered for his picaresque novel La vida del buscón (1626; “The Life of a Scoundrel”), which describes the adventures of “Paul the Sharper” in a grotesquely distorted world of thieves, connivers, and impostors.
William Hepner Nov 16, 2022:
I'm American, not British, so I'm not too familiar with that usage, but it sounds better and more natural than student-servant. Also good to keep in mind the context, which I think is 17th-century for this text (though I could be wrong). Is there a reasonable British/English equivalent from that time period?
neilmac Nov 16, 2022:
@Andrew As in Tom Brown's Schooldays. However, I don't think 'fag' really works in the query context either. This is a tough cookie, as it's from hundreds of years ago.
Andrew Bramhall Nov 16, 2022:
Fags "Student-servants" are traditionally called 'fags' in the British public school system, at least;
William Hepner Nov 16, 2022:
While I more or less agree with Phil's answer, it almost seems like a too-literal translation. But I should also say, given the context, that the word is capitalized twice, as though mentioned for its literal definition.

My other hesitation is that student-servant doesn't quite satisfy me. Phil, do you have any other references for the use of student-servant that we could use/have a look at?

Proposed translations

+2
6 mins
Selected

Vagabond; wanderer.

Note from asker:
Thank you all very much for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. Vagabond is close but doesn't quite fit because in English, vagabonds were homeless people, not university students.
Peer comment(s):

agree José Patrício : 2. adj. coloq. Dicho de un hombre: Ocioso y vagabundo - https://dle.rae.es/capigorrón
12 mins
Gracias;
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
1 hr
Gracias;
neutral O G V : not so exact for this context
3 hrs
Yep, thanks. You and Phil are both right.
neutral philgoddard : I don't see how this could follow on from "noble, colegial, camarista, pupilo".
3 hrs
Yep, thanks, Phil; in this context you're quite right.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you to everyone for your help. I decided to leave it in Spanish with an explanation. I selected this answer, although it is not quite correct, it may be in another context. "
30 mins

Scrounger

This usage should be understood in the context of the time period, which I assume is that of Francisco Quevedo (16th-17th century) and context of the words "pupilo" "zángano" and the like, all of which indicate that this has more to do with apparent laziness and the kind of drifting poverty of a student-type than with vagabonds/wandering as such.

Definition (historical dictionary) of capigorrón: "Ocioso y vagabundo que andaba comúnmente de capa y gorra, dicho especialmente de los estudiantes petardistas."

(Es decir, un estafador o persona que petardea: https://dle.rae.es/petardista?m=form)

Acepción relevante de "zángano": "Persona holgazana que se sustenta de lo ajeno."

También la acepción actual de la palabra "gorrón": "Que tiene por hábito comer, vivir, regalarse o divertirse a costa ajena."

I chose the word "scrounger" because it has a touch of (what seems to me, at least) antiquated British idiom that might not have been out of place in this historical period, and it's very easily applied to the life and activities of, if you will, a penniless student.

Definition of "scrounger": "Someone who tries to get things, especially money or food, by asking for them instead of buying them or working for them."
Example sentence:

Ocioso y vagabundo que andaba comúnmente de capa y gorra, dicho especialmente de los estudiantes petardistas.

Persona holgazana que se sustenta de lo ajeno.

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+1
18 mins

student-servant

...University of Salamanca, perhaps as a capigorron or capigorrista, a student-servant to some rich boy of his own age.
http://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.9783/9781512801927-...

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Note added at 24 mins (2022-11-16 20:11:20 GMT)
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Los expertos sitúan el origen [of the word "gorrón"] hacia finales del siglo XVI en los ambientes estudiantiles de la Universidad de Salamanca, donde muchos de los alumnos que asistían no disponían de demasiado dinero para mantenerse, por lo que se las ingeniaban de cualquier manera para poder alimentarse sin pagar.

Una de las formas de poder subsistir era trabajando al servicio de otros estudiantes pertenecientes a familias ricas y que disponían de un importante poder adquisitivo. Éstos contrataban los servicios de sus compañeros pobres para que les hicieran recados y los tuvieran atendidos (una especie de criado o asistentes) pagándoles a cambio unas monedas e incluso dejando que los acompañaran a convites y banquetes, donde los estudiantes sin recursos comían y bebían gratuitamente.

Los estudiantes adinerados vestían portando un manteo (capa larga con cuello derecho y bastante estrecho) y un bonete (especie de gorra, comúnmente de cuatro picos). Por su parte, los estudiantes sin recursos y que trabajaban al servicio de estos llevaban una capa clásica (hecha de tela barata) y una gorra. A estos sujetos se les conocía habitualmente con los términos: ***capigorrista, capigorra o capigorrón*** (términos provenientes de unir las palabras capa y gorra).
http://blogs.20minutos.es/yaestaellistoquetodolosabe/tag/cap...

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-11-16 23:22:55 GMT)
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This is more of an explanation than a translation. I'd would leave it in Spanish, and add a few words of explanation - something like "a student who financed their studies by acting as a servant to fellow students".
Peer comment(s):

neutral Andrew Bramhall : You mean a fag, a lackey?
32 mins
The meaning is explained in my references. Fag (in the British sense!) is the right kind of idea.
agree O G V : " I'd would leave it in Spanish, and add a few words of explanation" thats what i was trying in my reference, lol
3 hrs
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12 hrs

Varlet

This at least has an olde-worlde vibe to it, and comes close to the jocular meaning.

Varlet (plural varlets)

(obsolete) A servant or attendant.
(historical) Specifically, a youth acting as a knight's attendant at the beginning of his training for knighthood.
(archaic) A rogue or scoundrel.
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16 hrs

acolyte

As I do not think leaving it in Spanish is at all helpful to the reader, a bit of justified lterary licence is preferrable.

Starting with the DRAE definition:
1. adj. Que tenía órdenes menores y se mantenía así sin pasar a las mayores. U. t. c. s. m.

To then try Wikipedia:
Las órdenes menores son grados de ministros eclesiales.1​ En la iglesia católica, la iglesia latina predominante distinguía previamente entre las órdenes mayores—presbiterado (incluyendo a sacerdotes y obispos), diaconado y subdiaconado—y cuatro órdenes menores—acolitado, exorcistado, lectorado y ostiariado (en orden descendente).

or in English:

Minor orders are ranks of church ministry.[1] In the Catholic Church, the predominating Latin Church formerly distinguished between the major orders —priest (including bishop), deacon and subdeacon—and four minor orders—acolyte, exorcist, lector, and porter (in descending order).

This clearly defines someone pretty much at the end of the food chain, which is what the author is intending to convey.
Peer comment(s):

neutral O G V : no se refiere a un clérigo sino a un ayudante o criado de estudiante//habría que ver la guía entera, pero parece referirse a estudiantes y acólito tampoco es lo que dice
1 day 5 hrs
No lo veo con ninguna certeza. Fíjate en el comentario que agregué.
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

Appleton's Bilingual Dictionary 1940 edition

I use this dictionary as double-check for older vocab. Was handed down to me by someone who studied Spanish in days of yore.

capigorrista, capigorrón/a n. (coll.) vagabond; sloven person; student who never takes a high degree.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-11-16 23:09:23 GMT)
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Diccionário de uso del español, María Moliner (whom I also turn to when searching wider than today´s bilingual dictionaries):
1) vagabundo, holgazán
2) Se aplicaba al eclesiástico que tenía ordenes menores y se mantenía así sin pasar a los mayores.

Based on these two refs, if referring to a student it seems to be more about not progressing than serving others.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-11-16 23:12:09 GMT)
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Sorry. I´ve just read OGV´s ref. I correct my last comment as it says that those that didn´t progress did serve others.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Andrew Bramhall : See latest 3 entries in discussion box above;
1 day 19 hrs
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3 hrs
Reference:

se ponían al servicio de estudiantes ricos, a modo de criados

https://raicesdeperaleda.com/diccionario/capigorron/p-1874

A finales del XVI, en la Universidad de Salamanca, había muchos estudiantes que no disponían de recursos suficientes para pagarse los estudios y el sustento, por lo que tenían que buscarse el modo de financiarse. Éstos a menudo se ponían al servicio de estudiantes ricos, a modo de criados. Su atuendo típico era una capa y una gorra, por lo que eran conocidos como capigorras o capigorristas o capigorronesbold


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Note added at 3 horas (2022-11-16 23:29:21 GMT)
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when there is not a proper term of that time and with this connotation i woudl adapt it keeping the term and explaining

something like this
- I can't, I'm a "capigorrón", a servant of a student, and the order of seating is: nobleman, schoolboy, waiter, pupil and "capigorrón".
- "Capigorrón", that means poor....
By the way, I am Quevedo, Francisco de Quevedo and many of these servants will become great erudits of history.

student-servant seems unatural to adapt im[non native]op and keeping the original term gives some archaic touch, that can work perfectly for a translation of a text that must be plenty of Spanish terms (food, clothes, moral...) of that time
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree philgoddard : Yes, this is what I said in my answer.
9 mins
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
55 mins
agree Domini Lucas : I agree re keeping the original term as per my discussion entry. I think I was writing when you posted. :-)
1 hr
agree Yvonne Gallagher
3 hrs
agree Andrew Bramhall
9 hrs
agree Toni Castano : Ref.: "Eran estudiantes especialistas en colarse gratis en banquetes y celebraciones y en vivir del cuento, es decir, en "comer y vivir de gorra". https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2018/10/03/articulo/153855976...
4 days
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