| صفحات الموضوع: < [1 2] | Poll: "Translations can only be as good as the source text." ناشر الموضوع: ProZ.com Staff
|
|---|
Tim Drayton 
قبرص
Local time: 16:51
تركي إلى أنجليزي
+ ...
Christine Andersen wrote:
Even legal texts!
Not if they are to be submitted in evidence before a court. Then it is essential that any errors are retained/reflected - for all we know the very case may revolve around an inconsistency in a document.
| | | | Evans (X)
Local time: 14:51
إسباني إلى أنجليزي
+ ...
| It depends on whether you are translating for information or publication | Nov 24, 2010 |
Most of my clients want publishable copy, even though the source texts are often not of this quality.
If you are translating texts for information purposes only, then the client might want your translation to reflect its idiosyncracies.
It depends very much on which field and market you are working in.
| | | | Robert Forstag
الولايات المتحدة
Local time: 09:51
إسباني إلى أنجليزي
+ ...
| The affirmation upon which this poll is based is poorly formulated. | Nov 24, 2010 |
I would rather state the matter thus: The quality of the source text places definite limits on the potential quality of any translation of that text. Originals can always be improved upon by a careful translator, but the better the original, the better that any potential translation of that original can be. Perhaps more to the point: The better the original text, the higher the probability that a skilled translator will produce not only an excellent translation, but one that accurately reflect... See more I would rather state the matter thus: The quality of the source text places definite limits on the potential quality of any translation of that text. Originals can always be improved upon by a careful translator, but the better the original, the better that any potential translation of that original can be. Perhaps more to the point: The better the original text, the higher the probability that a skilled translator will produce not only an excellent translation, but one that accurately reflects the original text without being a "transcreation."
I also agree with Gilla re the prevalence of poorly written texts. I in fact find that well-written texts are more the exception than the rule.
[Edited at 2010-11-24 13:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Er, yes, but | Nov 24, 2010 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
I would rather state the matter thus: The quality of the source text places definite limits (snip) accurately reflects the original text without being a "transcreation."
If I remember correctly, the character limit for polls makes Twitter look like War and Peace.
| | |
|
|
|
Kimberly Wastler
الولايات المتحدة
Local time: 09:51
عضو (2005)
إيطالي إلى أنجليزي
+ ...
| Better - if you have permission | Nov 24, 2010 |
Ghislaine van der Burgt wrote:
I am quite shocked at the replies from you all. Unless a client asks me to edit as well as translate, I don't think it is up to me to change the intrinsic feel and context of the original, but rather leave it as it is. If it was of poor quality to start with, then that is an issue they have to address, not me. Of course I wouldn't leave the client with a poor translation, incorrect grammar or strange sentences, but I would never change the type of words used or the character of the original.
I agree to a point: you can't put what's not there in there but you can unravel some pretty nasty sentences into clearly written sentences and paragraph structure for your language. That doesn't mean rewriting the ideas or adding what isn't there.
And it does have a lot to do with the buy-in of the owner of the text. How many of you have seen Disney films in two languages? One of the two is always better - and at times it's the translation. Take their film "Cars" for example. I find the characters type cast, stiff and at times derogatory in the English version. The Italian is much more fluid and fun to listen to. OK, its a kids film and not rocket science; but that's not the issue here.
We're talking about making the localization of the translation in the language and culture where it will be used and for those who will use it. Even a company presentation needs to be fit for the audience who reads/listens to it. What good is an internet site for a hotel whose target guests are young families if the language is stuffy? Sometimes its a question of asking the right questions before you start. Sometimes it means going back with pointed questions to makes sure you're unraveling it right. Sometimes it means going back and telling them you how you understand the original ...
| | | | m_temmer
Local time: 07:51
أنجليزي إلى هولندي
+ ...
| of course they can (should) be better | Nov 24, 2010 |
The translator should always deliver a nice text, even if the source text is hard to read. There's always a way of formulating things in a clear way, without changing the meaning of the source text. None of my customers would accept a poorly written translation just because the source text was poorly written. That is just unacceptable.
[Edited at 2010-11-25 07:30 GMT]
| | | | Simon Bruni
المملكة المتحدة
Local time: 14:51
عضو (2009)
إسباني إلى أنجليزي
Ghislaine van der Burgt wrote:
I am quite shocked at the replies from you all. Unless a client asks me to edit as well as translate, I don't think it is up to me to change the intrinsic feel and context of the original, but rather leave it as it is.
I think sometimes a translation highlights the fact that the source material is of poor quality. I am more than capable and willing to remedy this, but not without express consent of the client.
If you were an interpreter, you wouldn't tell an audience what you thought they would like to hear either, would you?
The way I see it, my job is to prepare a text for publication. If we were to 'leave it as it is', as you say, we would be left with something that is identical to the original. This is an entirely pointless exercise as the product would not serve its purpose. We are paid by our clients to produce something of value, translating what the author intended, which is not necessarily what the author has achieved.
That aside, it would also be very difficult, would it not, to decide on a method for translating misspelling, lack of clarity or odd collocations, for instance. How exactly is a misspelt French word represented in an English text? How does an interpreter render a mis-pronounced word? Dodgy ground to walk on if you ask me.
| | | | | No it can be better | Nov 24, 2010 |
I've improved the original text on a few occasions. I would not see it fit to leave grammatical errors or poor turns of phrases. I bear in mind that sometimes my clients are so busy they don't always have time to check all their material that they send for translation, and would appreciate a good translation even if the original material was poor to start with. Also when doing interpreting in court, I've rendered a good interpreting for a question asked by a counsel on a few times even if the pe... See more I've improved the original text on a few occasions. I would not see it fit to leave grammatical errors or poor turns of phrases. I bear in mind that sometimes my clients are so busy they don't always have time to check all their material that they send for translation, and would appreciate a good translation even if the original material was poor to start with. Also when doing interpreting in court, I've rendered a good interpreting for a question asked by a counsel on a few times even if the person made the comment with less elocution.
As long as you don't change the nature of the original text (its substance) I think you can adapt the form (rendition) in order to fit the context to a certain degree.
I never had any client complaining about a translation being better than the original. Quite the opposite. The client can improve the original text at a later date.
Most of the time, the poor quality is the result of tight deadlines. The message is best rendered appropriately in accordance with the target audience and context. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| The problem with many French texts | Nov 24, 2010 |
Here, Christine is referring specifically to legal texts, but I hope she'll forgive me for (mis-)quoting her:
Christine Andersen wrote:
language is actually intended to deal with complicated issues clearly and concisely, and should not be used simply for the sake of sounding pompous.
This is a major difference between French and English, IMO. In the UK, the seventies saw the launch of the "Plain English Campaign" - this has yet to happen in France.
I hope I always convey the exact meaning, but I also hope I simplify the language so that it is actually understandable and communicates its message.
| | | | | These were usually contracts to be signed and used as contracts | Nov 24, 2010 |
Tim Drayton wrote: Christine Andersen wrote:
Even legal texts!
Not if they are to be submitted in evidence before a court. Then it is essential that any errors are retained/reflected - for all we know the very case may revolve around an inconsistency in a document.
The whole idea of the texts I was thinking of was to produce a working document, and it was often the English translation that would in practice be used, even though they often had a clause that if there should be any discrepancy, then the Danish source took priority.
The target readers (= parties to the contract) might or might not be native speakers of English or accustomed to English legal language.
The whole question depends on what the text is to be used for.
Sometimes you do need to reproduce the source warts and all, but I do not regard it as unfaithful to the writer's intention if I translate into decent, readable language where the source is not deliberately awkward or clumsy. My colleague had a gift for it.
Naturally, I would NEVER invent terminology or conclusions in a PhD thesis, but I would feel no obligation to write in a tedious style with dodgy grammar, just because some boffin was better at research than at writing it up elegantly. I know how dead tired people often are when they do the final revisions of their theses.
A thesis represents an awful lot of work, and if it is to be published, then most journals insist on at least a minimum of correct language and house style, and I would feel I was deliberately letting my client down if I did not at least bring it up to that standard.
My tagline is
I translate the meaning, not just the words.
That is the difference between a translator and Google Translate...
| | | | Lingua 5B
البوسنة والهرسك
Local time: 15:51
عضو (2009)
أنجليزي إلى كرواتي
+ ...
Generally, I would say that a translator can enhance the text quality. For example, bringing a better style to the target text ( if the source text style is really clumsy and poor).
However, for instance, say you have a SEO-optimized text ( typical for web copies), and there are a lot of repetitions of some source words, you have to preserve those key words in the target text as well. However, looking from a stylistic point of view, it's a terrible text. At our creative writing cour... See more Generally, I would say that a translator can enhance the text quality. For example, bringing a better style to the target text ( if the source text style is really clumsy and poor).
However, for instance, say you have a SEO-optimized text ( typical for web copies), and there are a lot of repetitions of some source words, you have to preserve those key words in the target text as well. However, looking from a stylistic point of view, it's a terrible text. At our creative writing course, I remember the usage of synonyms was strongly encouraged ( instead of a repeated word, let alone endless repetitions of a same word) and the students would always get lower marks for repeating words instead of being creative and colorful.
Therefore, the answer to the poll question can be yes, no or maybe which depends on specific project requirements.
[Edited at 2010-11-24 21:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No Other Way | Nov 25, 2010 |
Ghislaine van der Burgt wrote:
I am quite shocked at the replies from you all. ... I don't think it is up to me to change the intrinsic feel and context of the original, but rather leave it as it is.
...
If you were an interpreter, you wouldn't tell an audience what you thought they would like to hear either, would you?
I regret to say I am unhappy, too, about what most of my honourable colleagues post right here... I completely agree and am deeply convinced that it is absolutely outside the translator's role, to improve the source text quality.
| | |
|
|
|
m_temmer
Local time: 07:51
أنجليزي إلى هولندي
+ ...
| how can you not improve a bad text? | Nov 25, 2010 |
Elena Novski wrote:
I regret to say I am unhappy, too, about what most of my honourable colleagues post right here... I completely agree and am deeply convinced that it is absolutely outside the translator's role, to improve the source text quality.
I really don't see how a good translator can deliver a translation that is quite as badly written as the source text (if the source text was of poor quality of course). We're not talking about changing the contents, nor the basic structure of the text. A translator must render a good text, period. And there's always a way of improving the text slightly, to make your translation acceptable. Otherwise, like someone already said, we're just doing what Google Translate does. And why on earth would somebody pay us for something he or she can get for free?
Not so long ago, at a summer school on financial translation, one of the speakers (a banker) said: the future for translators of average quality is quite bleak, with machine translation progressively improving. If a translator wants to secure his future, he'd better specialize and be very good, to be able to compete.
| | | | | You have to use your head | Nov 25, 2010 |
The translator's foremost job is to preserve the meaning. If "improving" means changing the meaning, that's not acceptable. But I also agree with Michael T. that it's not acceptable (or a good career move!) to refrain from presenting the meaning in the best possible form.
I'm not in favor of random improvements just to make an idea "sound better" in the target language. They have to be carefully thought through, after verifying that the source text was indeed sub-standard. (More t... See more The translator's foremost job is to preserve the meaning. If "improving" means changing the meaning, that's not acceptable. But I also agree with Michael T. that it's not acceptable (or a good career move!) to refrain from presenting the meaning in the best possible form.
I'm not in favor of random improvements just to make an idea "sound better" in the target language. They have to be carefully thought through, after verifying that the source text was indeed sub-standard. (More than once I have saved myself from egg on my face by checking out terms and phrases that I thought were "wrong" - thanks to Google!).
If a change DOES affect the meaning, and it's necessary, then the translator has the obligation to make the change and then call it to the attention of the client. I sometimes come across a negative that was meant to be positive or vice versa. The original text is obviously wrong. I go ahead and make the change in the translation, and I also inform the client. Right now I'm translating a screenplay that refers to "Greenwich, New York," whereas the Greenwich in question is actually located in Connecticut. I did not hesitate to make the change, but I also informed the client.
I routinely make changes that alter the form but not the meaning -- when I feel that the source text has been expressed in an unprofessional way (which therefore detracts from its effectiveness) or is not easily understood by an English-speaking specialist in the field in question. If a list is not in parallel structure and the text is for publication, in some cases I would change the translation so that the phrases are grammatically parallel; in other cases I would probably ignore it.
Note that a "literal" translation can actually convey an incorrect meaning, given the differences between the languages in question.
In the course of my decades-long career, I have introduced improvements in countless legal resolutions that have served as the basis for action by international bodies - I even did so in documents that became international treaties. Since my improvements usually survived screening by reviewers, attorneys, ethics committees, style committees, final editors, etc., I can only assume it was the proper thing to do. The improvements then got reflected back into the original.
This was a great question, and the discussion is really valuable. Some cogent points have been made. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | P.S. I was recently called on the carpet... | Nov 25, 2010 |
... for overlooking some mistakes in the original text and transferring them into English. Here's what the PM said:
"just looked over the ... that you translated and was surprised to find that you retained the author’s errors (resolution numbers with forward slashes instead of periods and inconsistencies in the name of the XXX Committee, which was sometimes written as YYY and sometimes as ZZZ). Please take care with these details, as you are often the only person who will be looki... See more ... for overlooking some mistakes in the original text and transferring them into English. Here's what the PM said:
"just looked over the ... that you translated and was surprised to find that you retained the author’s errors (resolution numbers with forward slashes instead of periods and inconsistencies in the name of the XXX Committee, which was sometimes written as YYY and sometimes as ZZZ). Please take care with these details, as you are often the only person who will be looking at the translation before it goes to the requesting unit. We rely heavily on your experience as a former staff member and need you to be rigorous."
I rest my case!!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | صفحات الموضوع: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Poll: "Translations can only be as good as the source text." | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
