| Halaman dalam topik: < [1 2 3] > | Hidden Outsourcer Information counterproductive Penyiaran jaluran : Michael Meinhardt
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sylvie malich (X)
Jerman
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| Just a hint indeed. | May 28, 2008 |
Michael Meinhardt wrote:
One more thing maybe:
Nowadays, you can be from any place on the face of the earth and still speak better English than most Americans, or Britons for that matter. Let's face it: it's not that hard.
Listening to many "natives" and reading their scribble I am not sure what country they're from, quite honestly.
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I am speechless! I'm sorry, but I have to call you on this blatant arrogance. Particularly in Germany we native-English speaking translators are continually confronted with German natives who over-estimate their command of English.
| | | | Michael Meinhardt 
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER
sylvie malich wrote:
I am speechless! I'm sorry, but I have to call you on this blatant arrogance. Particularly in Germany we native-English speaking translators are continually confronted with German natives who over-estimate their command of English.
Apparently, you are not quite so speechless.
But you are right, Sylvie. The effect you describe exists as well.
Not instead of, but as well.
| | | | Åsa Campbell
Australia
Local time: 04:12
Ahli
Bahasa Inggeris hingga Bahasa Sweden
| I'm with you Sylvie | May 28, 2008 |
There is a reason for requesting native speakers only. Many people think that if you live and work in a country for years you automatically speak and write like a native. Most of the time this it is not the case, especially in writing.
Personally I do not touch translations into English even after living and working in the UK for more than ten years.
Surely there are plenty of opportunity in every language combination so why not stick to translating into your native lan... See more There is a reason for requesting native speakers only. Many people think that if you live and work in a country for years you automatically speak and write like a native. Most of the time this it is not the case, especially in writing.
Personally I do not touch translations into English even after living and working in the UK for more than ten years.
Surely there are plenty of opportunity in every language combination so why not stick to translating into your native language?
Åsa ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Meinhardt
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER | Speaking of Arrogance | May 28, 2008 |
Åsa Campbell wrote:
There is a reason for requesting native speakers only. Many people think that if you live and work in a country for years you automatically speak and write like a native. Most of the time this it is not the case, especially in writing.
Personally I do not touch translations into English even after living and working in the UK for more than ten years.
Surely there are plenty of opportunity in every language combination so why not stick to translating into your native language?
Åsa
This is precisely the attitude that has led to hiding outsourcer information in the first place: Superiority of native speakers.
And I tell you: It doesn't exist. For a very simple reason.
You may be a native of a target language. But what about the source?
Every translation has TWO components. Without exception.
So the native speaker advantage is a myth. A myth introduced by people who are unable to see translation as the multidimensional system that it is.
Ultimately, the quality of a translation is evaluated by the outsourcer. And so it should be.
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Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| Disappointed | May 28, 2008 |
Michael Meinhardt wrote:
Nowadays, you can be from any place on the face of the earth and still speak better English than most Americans, or Britons for that matter. Let's face it: it's not that hard.
Listening to many "natives" and reading their scribble I am not sure what country they're from, quite honestly.
Should the native language be a deciding factor then? Should it be given this overriding and excludatory (I made that one up) status?
So Americans and Brits are ignoramuses. Germans, Turks and Dutch can write better English than the natives. Ergo: If you're a Turk, Dutch or German just say your native language is English.
Of course, we're talking about American and British translators, not just the man or woman on the street. Sure, there are American and British translators who have had poor educations and write abysmally.
No doubt, there are exceptions. Some Turks can write English as well as educated native speaker translators.
Here's some good advice for clients from "Getting it Right" - an ATA client education booklet available in print and online.
Professional translators work into their native language
If you want your catalog translated into German and Russian, the work will be done by a native German speaker and a native Russian speaker. Native English-speakers translate from foreign languages INTO English.
As a translation buyer, you may not be aware of this, but a translator who flouts this basic rule is likely to be ignorant of other important quality issues as well.
OK, there are exceptions. But not many. If your supplier claims to be one of them, ask to see something he or she has done. If it is factually accurate and reads well, and if the translator guarantees equivalent quality for your text – why not? Sometimes a translator with particular subject-matter expertise may agree to work into what is for him or her a foreign language. In this case, the translation must be carefully edited – and not just glanced through – by a language-sensitive native speaker before it goes to press.
Chris Durban, author of the Onion Skin
http://www.atanet.org/publications/getting_it_right.php
| | | | Michael Meinhardt
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER | Don't despair :-) | May 28, 2008 |
So Americans and Brits are ignoramuses. Germans, Turks and Dutch can write better English than the natives. Ergo: If you're a Turk, Dutch or German just say your native language is English.
Of course, we're talking about American and British translators, not just the man or woman on the street. Sure, there are American and British translators who have had poor educations and write abysmally.
No doubt, there are exceptions. Some Turks can write English as well as educated native speaker translators.
Oh, Kim. Come on. You know full well I am not addressing EVERY native speaker of English.
I concede that I have used strong insinuations to make my point about the imaginary infallibility of native speaking translators versus the lowly foreigners. But it is a stubborn cliché after all. And one that can use a good kick in the pants if you ask me.
As is so often the case these things can be argued both ways, depending on where you stand.
And my view (if you care to read it again further up in the thread) is to give the "foreigners" a chance instead of excluding them by force AND making them pay for it. Because that is just an absolute outrage. And you know it.
| | | | | Only double natives allowed? | May 28, 2008 |
Michael Meinhardt wrote:
You may be a native of a target language. But what about the source?
Every translation has TWO components. Without exception.
So the native speaker advantage is a myth. A myth introduced by people who are unable to see translation as the multidimensional system that it is.
Ultimately, the quality of a translation is evaluated by the outsourcer. And so it should be.
I have to agree with Sylvie and Åsa and others. With your arguments, Michael, you mean that only translators who are "native" in source and target, as you seem to be, should be allowed to touch any translation work. Understanding a language is one thing, making a translation is another thing.
Although I have lived in Germany for 17 years now, I insist on doing only the language pair German into Swedish, which is my mother tongue. I wouldn't feel very well if I would try to do the reverse pair. I have seen so many examples of bad Swedish translations.
There is indeed a reason why we have to state our native language on our profile.
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
Erik Hansson wrote:
I have to agree with Sylvie and Åsa and others.
Yes, I agree with others, too.
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Maria Karra
Amerika Syarikat
Local time: 14:42
Ahli (2000)
Bahasa Greek hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| every case is different | May 28, 2008 |
Generally speaking, I agree with Erik and with Chris Durban (text cited in Kim's posting); it's better to have a translation done by a person who is a native speaker AND professional translator AND highly competent, particularly in the target language. Note that the first criteria two don't guarantee the third.
(He should also be a specialist or at least knowledgeable in a particular field, but the focus of this discussion seems to be on language, so I won't talk about specialization.)... See more Generally speaking, I agree with Erik and with Chris Durban (text cited in Kim's posting); it's better to have a translation done by a person who is a native speaker AND professional translator AND highly competent, particularly in the target language. Note that the first criteria two don't guarantee the third.
(He should also be a specialist or at least knowledgeable in a particular field, but the focus of this discussion seems to be on language, so I won't talk about specialization.)
However, as we all know, there are exceptions. Once such exception happens to be Michael. I think it is unfair that people like Michael are excluded from directory searches in combinations where the target language isn't the first language they learned as babies.
Erik, you wrote that you have lived in Germany for 17 years and that you choose not to translate into German. It may be a good decision or you may be modest or you simply don't want to do it, it is your decision and nobody else's business. The only thing I'd like to point out is that the number of years you (or anyone else) has lived in a particular country is not meaningful by itself. It is insufficient information. I don't mean to put you on the spot so I'll make up an example:
Let's say I lived in Spain for 16 years. What does this mean? Are our cases similar? Not at all. The number of years I lived in Spain is not meaningful to anyone unless they know a) at what age I went to Spain (when I was 4 or when I was 24? Big difference), b) how good I am at learning a language (including how skilled I am and how much effort I put into it), and c) details about my contact with the Spanish language (did I work at an American company and lived with American roommates? Or did I live there with my Spanish relatives and went to a Spanish school?)
There are more factors to take into account, and my point is not to analyze them but to show that each case is different and that we can't expect factors like the number of years spent in a country or one's native language to provide an accurate reflection of one's language competence, especially in our profession.
Erik wrote: There is indeed a reason why we have to state our native language on our profile.
Yes, I agree. It is important, most of the time. However, sometimes it is insufficient (like in Michael's case). And sometimes it may be totally misleading; let's say I was born in Chile and lived there the first 3 years of my life, and then moved to Turkey and lived there 50 years. Theoretically, my native language is Spanish. Does it matter? And yet I'd appear in the directory as a native Spanish speaker, and outsourcers might think they'll get a quality translation from Turkish to Spanish. It's unfair to them. It's also unfair to me because I won't appear in the directory in the reverse combination.
Cases like this aren't the norm, of course, but they aren't infrequent either, so we need to find a way to take them into account.
Michael wrote:
I concede that I have used strong insinuations to make my point about the imaginary infallibility of native speaking translators versus the lowly foreigners.
Well, yes, you did. It's one thing to be confident in your language competence and another thing to belittle other people's skills. There are bad translators (who may very well be native speakers of the target language), as there are bad dentists (speaking from experience. Recent painful experience. But I digress.) This isn't the norm, though, so let's not generalize or even start this discussion. Let's stay on topic, which -as you wrote- is "give the "foreigners" a chance instead of excluding them by force AND making them pay for it."
Maria
[Edited at 2008-05-29 12:38] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Meinhardt
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER | It's amazing how many ways words can be misunderstood :-) | May 28, 2008 |
...Let's stay on topic, which -as you wrote- is "give the "foreigners" a chance instead of excluding them by force AND making them pay for it."
Maria
Yes, thanks Maria. Let's.
| | | | writeaway
Bahasa Perancis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| Misunderstood? I don't think so :) | May 30, 2008 |
Michael Meinhardt wrote:
It's amazing how many ways words can be misunderstood
...Let's stay on topic, which -as you wrote- is "give the "foreigners" a chance instead of excluding them by force AND making them pay for it."
Maria
Yes, thanks Maria. Let's.
Michael Meinhardt wrote:
....
Nowadays, you can be from any place on the face of the earth and still speak better English than most Americans, or Britons for that matter. Let's face it: it's not that hard.
Listening to many "natives" and reading their scribble I am not sure what country they're from, quite honestly.
...
What you say is perfectly clear. I don't think that Sylvie, Åsa, Kim or Erik have misunderstood you at all.
This has been an issue before: http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/21666-english:_who_needs_the_natives.html#146849
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Kevin Lossner
Portugal
Local time: 19:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
+ ...
| Double natives? | May 30, 2008 |
Each to his own, I suppose. We've received a few unsolicited applications full of mistakes in English from Germans claiming native fluency in English and had to rescue quite a number of translations done by these "experts". But I'm perfectly willing to let the market decide. Many German customers are unable to judge the results of a German to English translation well, and if they are willing to accept a marketing translation from someone who spent a few years in film school in New York, who am I... See more Each to his own, I suppose. We've received a few unsolicited applications full of mistakes in English from Germans claiming native fluency in English and had to rescue quite a number of translations done by these "experts". But I'm perfectly willing to let the market decide. Many German customers are unable to judge the results of a German to English translation well, and if they are willing to accept a marketing translation from someone who spent a few years in film school in New York, who am I to argue? It's a good thing. The film student pays her rent this month and the phone rings one less time so I can concentrate and get some work done. And if it doesn't work out, the customer learns something, and I might be able to find time in a busy schedule to fix the problem - with an appropriate surcharge for the urgent re-translation, of course.
And Michael is right - there are exceptions. In 33 years of close contact with Germans, the German language and German culture I have met five of them that I can name. Two of them still can't quite get their prepositions right, however, but they are very good. The fact that I haven't met more of such people is possibly due to my lack of interest in speaking English with most of these experts, because I can usually understand their German better.
I have passed as a "native German" without trying to do so since my college days, and I've written reams of original material in German for academic, personal and business purposes. I could probably write half the material that ends up on my desk for translation better - or at least more grammatically. But it would never occur to me to claim to be a native speaker of German, and there are subtleties of expression where a native is simply better in most cases. On the whole I focus on what I feel I can do best and write in my (real) native language. I am no Joseph Conrad.
There are also situations where the source text is so complex or culturally/regionally accented that it is nearly impossible to find a native English speaker who can handle it. In these cases, it makes sense to use a native German with good English skills as a first translation "filter", preferably with careful editing afterward.
But I'm for an open market in any case. All the talk in BDÜ circles and elsewhere about the desirability of "protecting" the profession against unqualified outsiders is simply silliness. If all the native speakers of German who think their English is better than that of a native speaker want to bid on jobs in my market, let them by all means. Those who can deliver what the market wants will still be doing so in ten years. The others will have moved on to leading tours or tutoring bored pupils or whatever they do better.
[Edited at 2008-05-30 15:03] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Meinhardt
Local time: 20:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Yes! Misunderstood. | May 30, 2008 |
Alright folks! Lemme break it down for ya
I never said a word about having double native speakers only.
Infact, what I said (and why can't you just read it anyway?) was that I am in favor of ABOLISHING the native speaker parameter altogether.
That means to get rid of it. Not even mention it in the profiles.
And THEN let the market (the outsourcers) decide about the quality of my/your translat... See more Alright folks! Lemme break it down for ya
I never said a word about having double native speakers only.
Infact, what I said (and why can't you just read it anyway?) was that I am in favor of ABOLISHING the native speaker parameter altogether.
That means to get rid of it. Not even mention it in the profiles.
And THEN let the market (the outsourcers) decide about the quality of my/your translation skills.
I personally went for double native languages in MY profile a few days ago simply because that was the ONLY way for me to see outsourcer information for translation jobs from German to English.
Up to that point I was unable to see the outsourcer information and hence unable to apply for these jobs because my native language was set to German, which is correct.
It is also correct that I speak English the same way I speak German, but in truth most people really only have one native language. This is true for me as well.
The Proz folks had apparently decided that if someone is not a native speaker he/she is automatically incapable of handling a translation into a non-native language.
This, of course, is complete and utter nonsense for reasons I have outlined in previous posts and am not going to retype here.
So I was forced to do something I didn't even want to do only to be able to apply for jobs which I know I can do because I have done hundreds of them in the past.
And then I came up with the idea (and it really is just that) to get rid of the native language parameter because that would make everyone equal.
THAT is what this post is about: Giving EVERYONE the same chance instead of degrading one group of paying members in favor of another.
What ensued was a storm of "Are you nuts?" and "I don't think so!" comments by people who feel quite comfortable with leaving everything as it was. Because that is so much more convenient, isn't it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 12:42
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| Double natives | May 30, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
If all the native speakers of German who think their English is better than that of a native speaker want to bid on jobs in my market, let them by all means. Those who can deliver what the market wants will still be doing so in ten years. The others will have moved on to leading tours or tutoring bored pupils or whatever they do better.
Thank you very much for your thoughtful insights into this issue, Kevin. Yes, why lose any sleep over funny web site translations where we receive, for instance, all sorts of interesting informations about sightseeings in the Alps? The web site host is happy and may well even believe that it takes a German to translate German into English.
But although there's no need to get upset about this state of affairs, it wouldn't hurt to try to educate clients at every opportunity. Maybe ProZ and its job system could help us in this endeavor.
I do agree with Michael that we ought to do something about the native speaker issue. Although it is a step in the right direction when more and more clients come to understand that the rule of thumb is to select native speakers of the target language, things are more complex than that.
There are true bilinguals who are fully qualified to translate into two languages, and there are non-natives who have native-equivalent skills. I too would like to see a solution that would give members an honest way to express their skills rather than feeling they are forced to claim two native languages when it's simply not the case.
I know Maria Karra has put a lot of thought into the subject, and I'm looking forward to the new thread she promised us.
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