| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Pitiful-rate job offers on Proz Thread poster: Simon Bruni
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Claudio LR
Local time: 19:31
English to Italian
+ ...
| Not even in Switzerland... | Jan 30, 2012 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote: Jabberwock wrote:
...and the 12 cent translator gets well below the average wage in his country... which one earns more?
Jabberwock, what country would that be? For the sake of argument, $.12 x 250 = $30/hr.
Maybe (only?) in Switzerland it would be less, but only in CHF and definetely not "well below". If I take 250 words / hour (which I consider low) it would make a little less that the median Swiss salary (5500 CHF that is around 4560 EUR). if you consider 0.12 EUR instead of 0.12 CHF (=0.10 EUR) then it would be more.
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak 
Poland
Local time: 19:31
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Relativity of rates | Jan 30, 2012 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
So, what would happen if a translator in Romania charged 3 cents? (that's already 50% income increase).
Not much... He can probably double that amount and still find clients easily... But going up to 12 might be a bit difficult.
And what will happen to translators when the cost of living in Romania increases? The teachers will be fine, but how about the translators? That is a problem.
No, it's not. The whole playing field changes, everyone is in the same boat. You don't have to run faster than the lion, you just have to run faster than other zebras.
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
For the sake of argument, $.12 x 250 = $30/hr.
For comparison, the average weekly wage in the US for Q4 2011 was $762, equating to $19.05/hr for a 40hr week. This places plausible - perhaps even low - hourly earnings for a translator about 50% above the median in the US.
OK, I was lazy enough not to go for real figures, I just used the rates quoted in the topic here for the sake of the argument I've made. Still, your calculation is as flawed - you assume that translator can work 40 hours per week for $30, which is totally unrealistic... What about administrative work, downtime, rescheduling, etc. And there are no paid vacation days. I think calculation of the annual income would be more relevant.
What can somebody working for 2 cents per word in Romania buy for their weekly income?
This is exactly the point I wasn't making. I'm not comparing absolute values. I wrote specifically that the theoretical translator might make twice as much as the average wage in a given country, so he might be perceived as "rich" by his countrymen. Well, he might even feel rich - and that perception will certainly affect his drive to increase rates. Accordingly, the other translator, making (for the sake of the argument) something below the average wage, might not feel "rich" at all.
It should also be obvious that in the first case the competitive pressure both from people outside the profession ("Hey, I want to be rich, too!") and inside it ("Hey, I want to be rich, but I don't have to be that rich") will be much stronger than in the second case ("I've got better things to do than work for peanuts!").
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 12:31
Greek to English
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| Ah, a misunderstanding | Jan 31, 2012 |
"Not much... He can probably double that amount and still find clients easily... But going up to 12 might be a bit difficult."
Ah, I did not express well what I wanted to say. My idea was "why not 4 or 5 and 6-8 for the difficult projects".
I could never suggest to jump from 2 to 12 - that would be unreasonable.
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"all consumer goods are more expensive in these "cheap" countries"
Oh, I know that, bu... See more "Not much... He can probably double that amount and still find clients easily... But going up to 12 might be a bit difficult."
Ah, I did not express well what I wanted to say. My idea was "why not 4 or 5 and 6-8 for the difficult projects".
I could never suggest to jump from 2 to 12 - that would be unreasonable.
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"all consumer goods are more expensive in these "cheap" countries"
Oh, I know that, but don't tell them. These are not cheap countries. It's just that people live with less, that's all. They have a different lifestyle. In some areas and for some people, it works better than our consumer-oriented lifestyle. But that's not an excuse for them to make less. Nobody's asking them to work more. Just to negotiate better.
As far as the TVs, well, you don't need them much in Greece, it's a beautiful outdoors kind of country. Then again, in really rich houses in the U.S. you won't find a TV set either (TVs and such "lower class entertainment" are for the middle class).
In my last years in the fin. industry I was in estate planning. Most of my clients did not have TV sets in their homes. One of them though had one of the rooms exclusively dedicated to a string quartet and to reading. The library was a different room. Funny how these houses in Wilmette don't look much from the outside...
Anyway, translators make the prices, what the majority will ask, is what the prevailing price will be. The product will never remain "unsold" (by the time it reaches the translator, it's already sold). So... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Country comparisons | Jan 31, 2012 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote: Jabberwock wrote:
...and the 12 cent translator gets well below the average wage in his country... which one earns more? What can somebody working for 2 cents per word in Romania buy for their weekly income? Every single one of the things is mentioned is almost certainly more expensive there than in the US.
Well, there are also web sites with comparative figures. For example:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Romania
According to Numbeo, groceries cost 4/10 as much in Romania as in New York, and rent costs 1/10 as much in Romania as in New York.
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| Do some research first guys... | Jan 31, 2012 |
What can somebody working for 2 cents per word in Romania buy for their weekly income? Every single one of the things is mentioned is almost certainly more expensive there than in the US.
And you know this from...where exactly? You are dead wrong and should probably go to the countries you speak of first, and then form an opinion. Rent in Romania: for about 200€ a month you can get a relatively big two-bedroom apartment in one of the bigger cities. I'm not even talking abou... See more What can somebody working for 2 cents per word in Romania buy for their weekly income? Every single one of the things is mentioned is almost certainly more expensive there than in the US.
And you know this from...where exactly? You are dead wrong and should probably go to the countries you speak of first, and then form an opinion. Rent in Romania: for about 200€ a month you can get a relatively big two-bedroom apartment in one of the bigger cities. I'm not even talking about small towns or villages here, where it's a lot less. Food: I have dined many times at restaurants that are there considered "fancy" (in small towns), and payed 9ron (3 euros) for a full dinner menu, with wine, desert, starters,etc. When's the last time you got a 3 euro luxurious dinner in Greece or NY? So, for 2 cents/word, if you work 5 days a week and can translate about 2500 words/day, you make 250 euros in a week. (This is assuming of course you get enough work to translate 2500 words/day) That's enough to cover your rent and buy you quite a few lovely restaurant dinners. In one week.
Well, there are also web sites with comparative figures. For example:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Romania
According to Numbeo, groceries cost 4/10 as much in Romania as in New York, and rent costs 1/10 as much in Romania as in New York.
Thank you.
[Edited at 2012-01-31 09:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-01-31 12:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | B D Finch
France
Local time: 19:31
French to English
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| Defining "professional" | Jan 31, 2012 |
Well, "professional" rather than "labourer" is the word ProZ uses to define itself (could be time for a name change to LaB.com?), so let's look at some definitions of the term.
According to Wikipedia:
"A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, lawyers, clergymen, and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to estate agents, surveyors, environmental ... See more Well, "professional" rather than "labourer" is the word ProZ uses to define itself (could be time for a name change to LaB.com?), so let's look at some definitions of the term.
According to Wikipedia:
"A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, lawyers, clergymen, and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to estate agents, surveyors, environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators, and many more. ...
...In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work.[1][2][3][4] Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity. ...
...In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work.[1][2][3][4] Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity."
However, I recall learning as a sociology student that the definition included control over their terms and conditions of work, the ability to restrict entry to the profession and a knowledge base that is established, shared and hard to acquire.
"restricted entry, and a homogeneous consensual knowledge base." (Lortie, D. 1975. School Teacher: A sociological study. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.)
I think that far from restricting entry to the "profession", ProZ is currently functioning to open up that entry. That would, in my view, be a good thing if it worked by helping people to acquire professional level knowledge and skills, while still restricting entry to those who have managed to acquire them. That, however, seems not to be the case. ProZ seems to offer the designation "professional" to people who do not meet those criteria. As for control over our terms and conditions of work, though we are free to avoid the jobs posted on ProZ, ProZ does seem to contribute nothing to this aspect or even to undermine it as it blurs the distinctions between qualified and unqualified, competent and incompetent and offers jobs at ridiculous rates.
Look at the websites of some of the agencies posting jobs on ProZ and whose main marketing seems to be based on price and speed. Judging by the linguistic quality of those websites, what on earth do the people running those agencies know about professionalism and quality? ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 19:31
Spanish to English
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| What about this? | Jan 31, 2012 |
Simon Bruni wrote:
If our esteemed colleagues at Proz.com are unwilling or (for whatever reason) unable to do anything about this practice, I would urge fellow translators not to quote for these jobs and encourage pricing practices that damage the industry as a whole.
I was forwarded a link today to an online company claiming to be "The World's Leading Translation Service", offering "Professional Translation, 10000 Native-Speaking Translators, High-Quality Guaranteed, Amazing Customer Service"... and all with a very fast turnover (they say one hour, but there must be exceptions). Their price per word to clients on the site is 0,055€ so I wonder how much these "Professional... Native-Speaking Translators" are getting? I don't want to post the whole address in case it's against the rules, but was wondering if anyone on proz had any experience of working with them.
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:31
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER | The bigger the schmetter | Jan 31, 2012 |
neilmac wrote:
I was forwarded a link today to an online company claiming to be "The World's Leading Translation Service", offering "Professional Translation, 10000 Native-Speaking Translators, High-Quality Guaranteed, Amazing Customer Service"
I invariably find the bigger, more corporate-looking agencies with photos of air-brushed models posing as officey types on their websites to be the stingiest and fiddliest of clients, though I hesitate to call them clients as they seem to think you are more employee than service provider.
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wonita (X)
China
Local time: 13:31
| Who should complain about whom? | Jan 31, 2012 |
5 cents believe 2 cents have irreversibly sabotaged the market;
10 cents think 5 cents should be made responsible for the miserable rates;
And for 20 cents, all the other work for dumping price.
Choir: I always work at the right price,
at the right price, la la la...
[Edited at 2012-01-31 18:44 GMT]
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 19:31
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | The formula... | Jan 31, 2012 |
Bin Tiede wrote:
5 cents believe 2 cents have irreversibly sabotaged the market;
10 cents think 5 cents should be made responsible for the miserable rates;
And for 20 cents, all the other work for dumping price.
I have developed a scientific formula for that:
The Absolutely Minimum Rate Below Which No Decent Translator Shall Dare To Go = My rate - 0.01
Naturally, to use it, everyone should use his own rate as the reference.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:31
Italian to English
In memoriam | What matters is the quality, not the rate | Jan 31, 2012 |
Bin Tiede wrote:
5 cents believe 2 cents have irreversibly sabotaged the market;
10 cents think 5 cents should be made responsible for the miserable rates;
And for 20 cents, all the other work for dumping price.
Choir: I always work at the right price,
at the right price, la la la..
The practical approach is to look at the work that costs 20 cents a word and if you can demonstrate that your translations are better, charge more.
If you can't, find another sector where your work is as good as the best in the market.
[Edited at 2012-01-31 20:53 GMT]
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 19:31
English to Polish
+ ...
| price differences | Jan 31, 2012 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
(...) one of the things is mentioned is almost certainly more expensive there than in the US. From my experiences living in Eastern Europe (not Romania, admittedly) and spending expended period of time there every year, virtually all consumer goods are more expensive in these "cheap" countries.
When was that and where? Moscow is said to be very expensive, for example, as is Prague and Budapest.
I went to the U.S. this October (New York, Virginia, D.C., Florida) and was suprised at how expensive it had gotten. Things looked cheaper (on a relative basis, i.e. in terms of U.S./Poland ratio) back in 2000. Right now, the only thing I paid less for than I do at home were brand clothes, and only if I drove to an outlet or a discount store. Also: car rental (found a good deal) and obviously gasoline (we drive a lot less in Europe, though, as you surely know the distances are generally smaller).
Just about everything else cost much more. I'm not talking about "rent in Manhattan". Just regular things - food, restaurants, buses, drugs (the FDA-approved ones , etc.
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 13:31
Spanish to English
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| The real issue has once again gotten buried under a lot of aimless kvetching | Feb 1, 2012 |
It is futile to complain about how "unfair" the low rates are. It is all too clear that there is a market for cheap, low-quality translations that are produced by unqualified translators. In addition, there are highly qualified professionals in developing countries who are very happy to work for far less than their peers who are based in more expensive countries.
The real point (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that the way this site operates tends to enable action at the low e... See more It is futile to complain about how "unfair" the low rates are. It is all too clear that there is a market for cheap, low-quality translations that are produced by unqualified translators. In addition, there are highly qualified professionals in developing countries who are very happy to work for far less than their peers who are based in more expensive countries.
The real point (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that the way this site operates tends to enable action at the low end of the market; that this is not some sort of unfortunate and unintended byproduct, but a deliberate strategy; and that there are absolutely no signs that this approach will change. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:31
Italian to English
In memoriam | An opportunity, not a problem | Feb 1, 2012 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
there are highly qualified professionals in developing countries who are very happy to work for far less than their peers who are based in more expensive countries.
Surely this is a spur for those of us in high cost of living countries to find ways to differentiate our services (the more you specialise, the fewer competitors you have)? The fact that we have ambitious rates also encourages the more enterprising among our successful "low-rent" colleagues to rack up their prices.
The real point (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that the way this site operates tends to enable action at the low end of the market; that this is not some sort of unfortunate and unintended byproduct, but a deliberate strategy; and that there are absolutely no signs that this approach will change.
I hope not.
Proz enables action at both ends of the market. The low-end action is more visible, and more substantial in volume, but there are plenty of high-end commissions floating about. The main thing is that action is being enabled.
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Robert Forstag wrote:
It is futile to complain about how "unfair" the low rates are. It is all too clear that there is a market for cheap, low-quality translations that are produced by unqualified translators. In addition, there are highly qualified professionals in developing countries who are very happy to work for far less than their peers who are based in more expensive countries.
The real point (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that the way this site operates tends to enable action at the low end of the market; that this is not some sort of unfortunate and unintended byproduct, but a deliberate strategy; and that there are absolutely no signs that this approach will change.
Fairness is not - or shouldn't be - an issue here. Every translator is free to accept or reject any job offer.
I don't think this site is deliberately biased in any way, other than occasionally promoting Trados beyond its scope and our endurance. Professional outsourcers looking for professional translators have all the tools to find them here, and may contact the ones they select directly. Meanwhile greedy schemers may use the job system to find cheap amateurs. This does not prevent the serious outsourcers from using the job system, nor the amateur ones from contacting both professional and amateur translarors directly.
A department store may sell portable music players made by renowned manufaturers, with extended warranty, etc. etc. On the sidewalk right in front of it, there may be a street merchant selling MP3 players whose batteries will outlast the unit itself. The marketplace comprises both, and anything in-between.
The point is that the merchant must yell to find his patsies, while the store will just have to be there to sell its merchandise. Likewise the translation agencies on the dark side of the street will have to post their jobs to find people to do them as cheaply as they want; meanwhile the good ones may use this site as a meeting place to find the translators they need.
Some evidence that Proz is indeed attempting to set the wheat apart from the chaff are in the PRO-tag on one side, and the Blue Board on the other. Both may have their shortcomings, however the intent is positive.
I don't see how a web site may force any translator to work for lower rates than they think are fair market practice, not merely fair in terms of how much effort they'll put in their work.
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