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When a client wants 'corrections' that will make the translation bad
Thread poster: Malcolm Rowe
Malcolm Rowe
Malcolm Rowe
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:57
French to English
+ ...
May 13

Getting a bit frustrated as I've recently had a couple of end-clients wanting changes that will make my translations sound non-native.

For example, I have translated a marriage certificate from French to English where the registrar does the typical French officialese thing of referring to himself as "nous" ("we"/"us"). As usual, I have translated this as "I" or "Me" as applicable, because it is the one person speaking but the end client wants them all changed to "we"/"us".
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Getting a bit frustrated as I've recently had a couple of end-clients wanting changes that will make my translations sound non-native.

For example, I have translated a marriage certificate from French to English where the registrar does the typical French officialese thing of referring to himself as "nous" ("we"/"us"). As usual, I have translated this as "I" or "Me" as applicable, because it is the one person speaking but the end client wants them all changed to "we"/"us".

The document has the structure, again fairly common in French-language marriage certificates:
"On [date] at [time], before Me("Us") [Name and roles of registrar], appeared [groom's details] and [bride's details]."

To make this sound a little less horrible in English (and this is again my usual practice) I readjusted the structure to:
"On [date] at [time], the following persons appeared before Me("Us") [Name and roles of registrar]: [groom's details] and [bride's details]."

The end client has sent a change request, asking (among a few other things that I'm happy to change) for all the instances of "I" and "Me" to be changed back to "we" or "us" and for "appeared" to be reinserted before the Groom's details (no mention of removing the insertion that I put in when restructuring the phrasing).

I made the other requested changes and sent notes on why I think these elements are better translated the way I've done so. But they have replied in a way that says thanks for my note but makes it clear that they haven't really paid it any attention, essentially just the original email asking for these changes and the ones that I've already made.

Regardless of what you think of my specific choices, if it were you, would you stick to your guns or send them what you consider to be a sub-par translation that corresponds to their requests? Or do you think I'm being overly protective of my choices anyway?

Fortunately, I'm not being asked to certify it in any way.
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Marina Aleyeva
Tony Keily
 
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Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 01:57
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English to Croatian
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Too time consuming May 13

These changes back and forth, and especially justifications and background explanations are extremely time consuming. I would go with it, while telling them I will not be responsible for any silly consequences that may result from such changes. I would not explain any further because I am not paid to provide training and educational justifications.

Dan Lucas
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neilmac
 
Denis Fesik
Denis Fesik
Local time: 02:57
English to Russian
+ ...
So, they're happy and paid for the work May 13

I just have one question: were they willing to pay an additional fee for the changes? The original translation wasn't flawed or anything, so they were in fact asking for an extra favor. If you worked from Russian, you'd have fun with certificates: while the Fre-Eng text is awful but still comes together, its Rus-Eng cousin would be screaming for (sometimes heavy) restructuring to avoid falling to pieces. I keep seeing translations that are so ruined because the translator didn't care about how d... See more
I just have one question: were they willing to pay an additional fee for the changes? The original translation wasn't flawed or anything, so they were in fact asking for an extra favor. If you worked from Russian, you'd have fun with certificates: while the Fre-Eng text is awful but still comes together, its Rus-Eng cousin would be screaming for (sometimes heavy) restructuring to avoid falling to pieces. I keep seeing translations that are so ruined because the translator didn't care about how differently the two languages are structured. And you'd also often have to use "the following" where the source text just keeps going. I recently read a book in English, translated from French. It was okay terminology-wise (as a welding handbook) but read exactly like French, I know the feel. In my case, I have to leave stupid reviewer changes uncorrected quite often because our main customer is really a piece of work, only I'm not a freelancer and simply wash my hands whenever this happensCollapse


 
Maria G. Grassi, MA AITI
Maria G. Grassi, MA AITI  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:57
English to Italian
+ ...
No way May 13

If I was asked to write “before me, [registrar’s name], appeared John and Mary” I would simply say it is impossible to do so.
In similar circumstances, I wrote “before me, [registrar’s name], John and Mary appeared”.

This is not really about sticking to one’s guns, this is about writing in English or not.

I would let the “me” vs. “us” go, but for everything else I would tell the client “In both your interest and mine, I cannot produce an il
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If I was asked to write “before me, [registrar’s name], appeared John and Mary” I would simply say it is impossible to do so.
In similar circumstances, I wrote “before me, [registrar’s name], John and Mary appeared”.

This is not really about sticking to one’s guns, this is about writing in English or not.

I would let the “me” vs. “us” go, but for everything else I would tell the client “In both your interest and mine, I cannot produce an illiterate text” and would refuse to make the changes.
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Christopher Schröder
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Angie Garbarino
 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:57
French to English
. May 13

I'd feel like telling them that next time, there's no need to call on a human translator.

I had a client once who wanted me to use the same term as in French. The word exists in English but not for the very specific client context. I found the correct term, on websites written directly in English, in the client context. The client pointed me to English websites using the French term. I pointed out that in fact the websites he was pointing me to were all French or Italian websites w
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I'd feel like telling them that next time, there's no need to call on a human translator.

I had a client once who wanted me to use the same term as in French. The word exists in English but not for the very specific client context. I found the correct term, on websites written directly in English, in the client context. The client pointed me to English websites using the French term. I pointed out that in fact the websites he was pointing me to were all French or Italian websites with pages in English. That maybe he was OK with that but if he wanted me to translate into Globish, I was not the right person to work with. There was a moment of silence, then he said OK. We went on to work together until he retired.
The work in question was actually a book, which was to be a course book at a business school, so it was pretty important to get it right.

For a marriage certificate, make sure you have their requests in writing just in case there could be consequences, then it really doesn't matter. If ever it needs changing back they can do it.
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Christopher Schröder
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Christine Andersen
 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:57
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
It is not your job to protect determined people... May 14

Malcolm Rowe wrote:
Getting a bit frustrated as I've recently had a couple of end-clients wanting changes that will make my translations sound non-native.

...from the consequences of their own poor judgment.
They will do what they will.

I can and do flag poor English to my clients, but ultimately some of them choose to ignore that.
Provided that I'm paid, I shrug my shoulders and move on.

Regards,
Dan


kretslopp
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Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Up to you May 14

I would double down but I’m a bolshie diva who would happily die on this hill.

 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 01:57
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Explain, then let the client decide May 14

When I worked in house, I sometimes overheard - or as part of my training allowed to listen - when a senior colleague dealt with so-called complaints.
He was expert at explaining to clients why the original translation was right and then finding a diplomatic solution that everyone was happy with. I am simply not so diplomatic, but I try in writing to pretend I am!

It paid off. Like Kay Denney, he often convinced the client that the agency´s translators knew what they were doi
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When I worked in house, I sometimes overheard - or as part of my training allowed to listen - when a senior colleague dealt with so-called complaints.
He was expert at explaining to clients why the original translation was right and then finding a diplomatic solution that everyone was happy with. I am simply not so diplomatic, but I try in writing to pretend I am!

It paid off. Like Kay Denney, he often convinced the client that the agency´s translators knew what they were doing, so clients came loyally back for more, and accepted what was delivered. If you have to spend a lot of time on unpaid discussions, then it is better if the client goes elsewhere. I have seen clients go both ways, too.

At a powwow or by some other means, you could find out how colleagues tackle standard forms such as marriage certificates. A colleague at the agency had made templates for many of the Danish ones, which back in those pre-Trados days saved time fiddling with formatting etc.

Then stick to your guns and cover your back. In the end it´s the client´s text. They will mess it up if they want to, so don´t lose sleep over it!
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Dan Lucas
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Michele Fauble
Christopher Schröder
David Skelding
 
Oriol VIP
Oriol VIP
Spain
Local time: 01:57
English to Spanish
+ ...
That's the occasional sad episode in the life of a professional translator! May 14

In my long experience (15 years soon!) as a translator, this is one of the hardest things you have to face: being correct and not being listened by a stubborn client.

Sometimes you get a student or non-native speakers as reviewers/QA staff who lied during their application and they simply don't have the knowledge/level to work as a professional linguist -and you will get a lot of those.

Another times, companies use these sort of "corrections" you talk about to try to av
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In my long experience (15 years soon!) as a translator, this is one of the hardest things you have to face: being correct and not being listened by a stubborn client.

Sometimes you get a student or non-native speakers as reviewers/QA staff who lied during their application and they simply don't have the knowledge/level to work as a professional linguist -and you will get a lot of those.

Another times, companies use these sort of "corrections" you talk about to try to avoid payment in a very evil way. Sad, yes, but true, nonetheless.

And there are even darker cases I won't speak about here, as they are too convolluted and involving politics.

My policy/state of mind is always as follows: 1) the text is the client's intellectual property and not mine, so they can do with it whatever they want, and 2) I will always provide my expert philologist advice and let them know which is the best option linguistically as per grammar, usage, history, connotations, etc., but that is as far as my liability goes as an outsourcer -I am not going to call the grammar police if the client does not listen or respect my expert opinion. In other words, do your job as a linguist, let the PM do his/her job as a manager. And if you warned them, then your hands are clean (and I mean legally).

This policy has saved me from some bitter communications, rude answers and harsh conflicts, I can tell you that! Don't dwell on it: say what you have to say and move on to the next job. You know you are right, and sometimes this is enough!

[Edited at 2024-05-14 10:54 GMT]
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Josephine Cassar
Yuliya Sedykh
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Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Failure May 14

Christine Andersen wrote:
In the end it´s the client´s text. They will mess it up if they want to, so don´t lose sleep over it!


They will indeed, and I don't lose sleep over it, but I do see it as a failure on my part when they mess things up.

I think our duty is to the reader, not the client.


Tretyak
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Marina Aleyeva
Marina Aleyeva  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 02:57
Member (2006)
English to Russian
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Stand up for your work May 14

You did the right thing, so stand up for your work and defend it. I disagree with those who say this is unimportant or not where one should stick to their guns, or that you should let the client have what they want even if what they want is against every rule of the English language. From a linguistic point of view, a marriage certificate is no different from any other document for which we are supposed to provide a good and sensible translation. After all, this is what we are here for. Otherwis... See more
You did the right thing, so stand up for your work and defend it. I disagree with those who say this is unimportant or not where one should stick to their guns, or that you should let the client have what they want even if what they want is against every rule of the English language. From a linguistic point of view, a marriage certificate is no different from any other document for which we are supposed to provide a good and sensible translation. After all, this is what we are here for. Otherwise, the client may just as well use any of the nonsense producing MT systems.Collapse


Maria G. Grassi, MA AITI
Christopher Schröder
 
Tony Keily
Tony Keily
Local time: 01:57
Italian to English
+ ...
I wouldn't make the changes... May 14

... but I'd tell them they can do what they like with the documents, now that they're theirs.

I've had customers come back and ask for changes to be made in certs that are quite wrong (for example for Italian doctors to be called 'doctor-surgeons'). I'll explain why they're wrong (in this case by referring to the applicable EU legislation on professional equivalency, where the names of professions used in each country are actually listed) and that usually solves the problem. Howeve
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... but I'd tell them they can do what they like with the documents, now that they're theirs.

I've had customers come back and ask for changes to be made in certs that are quite wrong (for example for Italian doctors to be called 'doctor-surgeons'). I'll explain why they're wrong (in this case by referring to the applicable EU legislation on professional equivalency, where the names of professions used in each country are actually listed) and that usually solves the problem. However, I won't make changes that I won't stand by myself.

BTW, you can maybe use a formula that works for me in this sort of document: 'on... at ... there appeared [names]' The 'there appeared' is pretty common in notarial documents.
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Marina Aleyeva
Maria G. Grassi, MA AITI
 
Becca Resnik
Becca Resnik  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:57
Member
German to English
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A fine line May 14

I handle these situations based on whether the desired translation is truly incorrect. If it's preferential and not outright incorrect (or wholly and indisputably unnatural), I just change it. As others have said, it's their text, and it's usually most sensible to shrug it off, know you're right, and await payment.

But if the desired change is wrong or is indisputably poor English, I put my foot down. I rarely encounter this, although the timing of your post is a coincidence for me.
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I handle these situations based on whether the desired translation is truly incorrect. If it's preferential and not outright incorrect (or wholly and indisputably unnatural), I just change it. As others have said, it's their text, and it's usually most sensible to shrug it off, know you're right, and await payment.

But if the desired change is wrong or is indisputably poor English, I put my foot down. I rarely encounter this, although the timing of your post is a coincidence for me. Late last week, I submitted a translation and received a message from the PM the next day that she couldn't submit it to the client until I provided the translation for a sentence I'd omitted.

Background: This was a set of instructions for installing an LED retrofit kit in car headlights. The German source text used the word "retrofit," followed by a sentence explaining that "retrofit" comes from the English language and essentially means "nachrüsten."

I left the explanatory sentence out of my English translation, for obvious reasons. The PM wouldn't have it, stating that "it's not up to us whether to leave a sentence out." I told her that it is indeed up to the professional translator to make such decisions (particularly in an instruction manual, as opposed to a legal document). She still wouldn't accept this. I told her I would not provide a translation for this sentence because it would be nonsensical and thus confusing or even humorous for the reader – it would reduce the quality of the translation.

She never responded, which is very unusual for that PM and that agency as a whole. I would just about bet money she ran the sentence through DeepL and sent the translation on. At any rate, I felt this situation warranted refusing the requested change.
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Kay Denney
Christopher Schröder
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Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:57
French to English
. May 14

I have found, when trying to explain something to a client, that it helps if I concede one point. They want nevertheless rather than nonetheless? OK fine, I'll make a note of it for next time! But if you want to put that you "have worked in this field since a long time", no sorry, here, it's a point of grammar, it is not negotiable because grammar exists to make things easier to understand. You don't want your clients to have to make huge efforts to understand you do you?
Conceding a point
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I have found, when trying to explain something to a client, that it helps if I concede one point. They want nevertheless rather than nonetheless? OK fine, I'll make a note of it for next time! But if you want to put that you "have worked in this field since a long time", no sorry, here, it's a point of grammar, it is not negotiable because grammar exists to make things easier to understand. You don't want your clients to have to make huge efforts to understand you do you?
Conceding a point shows that you aren't just being stubborn or think you know everything.

Becca: the retrofit thing just made me laugh. I assume you did explain why you didn't need to explain?
That is typically the kind of thing where I put a translator's note, so the client realises I did it on purpose. Sometimes I think I overdo the translator's notes, but then they always seem necessary.
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Becca Resnik
Christopher Schröder
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Becca Resnik
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United States
Local time: 19:57
Member
German to English
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Wellll May 14

Kay Denney wrote:

Becca: the retrofit thing just made me laugh. I assume you did explain why you didn't need to explain?
That is typically the kind of thing where I put a translator's note, so the client realises I did it on purpose. Sometimes I think I overdo the translator's notes, but then they always seem necessary.



First, I love that it made you laugh. When it happened, I thought, "I ought to share this on ProZ sometime, as that's a crowd that'll really get a laugh out of this.

As for giving an explanation: *sigh* Well, I have always gone to great lengths to explain why I made one decision or another when asked, which my clients have always expressed great appreciation for. But this was such an asinine request, especially to be repeated (I could understand at first glance being alarmed by a missing sentence), and especially from a PM with a degree in culture and translation studies...that after hesitating at the keyboard for several minutes, I gave no further explanation.

I was very tempted to explain my decision away by listing the possible translations of this sentence and explaining why they would be utter nonsense to anyone reading the English-language instructions, but I am quite certain she would have simply selected one and filled that in. This way, whatever nonsense she provides could not have come from me.

I do often use translator's notes, but I know this agency really scrubs them before sending anything to end clients, which can be quite frustrating.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
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