| Halaman dalam topik: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Penyiaran jaluran : XXXphxxx (X)
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Jessica Noyes 
Amerika Syarikat
Local time: 21:54
Ahli
Bahasa Sepanyol hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| Translating into non-native | Jun 22, 2012 |
(ps Are you really better at translating into a non-native language than into your own????)
[/quote]
Not to lead the thread astray, I would like to mention that some people learn and speak a language in their homes and with their families, but never attend a school or university where that language is used for instruction -- and perhaps never even study the grammar of that "native language." These people, who would have spent years studying in L2 universities, could very co... See more (ps Are you really better at translating into a non-native language than into your own????)
[/quote]
Not to lead the thread astray, I would like to mention that some people learn and speak a language in their homes and with their families, but never attend a school or university where that language is used for instruction -- and perhaps never even study the grammar of that "native language." These people, who would have spent years studying in L2 universities, could very conceivably translate better into their L2. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Portugis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER | Agree (again) | Jun 22, 2012 |
KKastenhuber wrote:
Perhaps implementing some kind of warning on the page where one sets one's native language could help stop some of the abuse? I much prefer education over control, and since control seems to be quite difficult to put into effect anyways - page 7 of the thread, no solution in sight - maybe it's worth a shot? Or does something like this exist already? I can't remember!
I'm thinking of some kind of extra visible notice box with site rule number 6 and a short but clear explanation of the fact that wrongfully stating two native languages is both against site rules and professional ethics (and possibly a ProZ.com working definition of the term "native language" in order to help people).
It won't stop those who do it on purpose, but it might help prevent some of the more innocent cases. What do you think?
This is something that Robert suggested earlier in our discussion:
A corrollary to my suggestion would be that each person, prior to entering a native language when generating a new profile, would have to check a box indicating they have read a statement to the effect that the claim of a native language is essential to one's professional credibility, and that any spurious claim could result in challenges to and, eventually, removal of said claim.
It's a start.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Ibrani hingga Bahasa Inggeris
Does anyone else feel it's somewhat surreal that we are all arguing over how to force people to simply be honest on a site supposedly for professionals.?
Honesty and professionalism go hand in hand. If people are lying about their native language (whatever that means to them; to me it's the language you are strongest in) then not only are they misrepresenting themselves which is against site rules (so should be kicked out - not that they will of course - $$$) bu... See more Does anyone else feel it's somewhat surreal that we are all arguing over how to force people to simply be honest on a site supposedly for professionals.?
Honesty and professionalism go hand in hand. If people are lying about their native language (whatever that means to them; to me it's the language you are strongest in) then not only are they misrepresenting themselves which is against site rules (so should be kicked out - not that they will of course - $$$) but they are putting themselves into the same category as bottom feeders and parasites i.e. unprofessional. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Amerika Syarikat
Local time: 19:54
Bahasa Norway hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| Native language | Jun 22, 2012 |
To claim a language as a native language is to make a claim about the age at which it was acquired and the circumstances under which it was acquired. A native language is acquired at a young age and as a member of a community of native speakers.
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Rob Grayson
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Perancis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| Nodding in agreement | Jun 22, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Does anyone else feel it's somewhat surreal that we are all arguing over how to force people to simply be honest on a site supposedly for professionals.?
Honesty and professionalism go hand in hand. If people are lying about their native language (whatever that means to them; to me it's the language you are strongest in) then not only are they misrepresenting themselves which is against site rules (so should be kicked out - not that they will of course - $$$) but they are putting themselves into the same category as bottom feeders and parasites i.e. unprofessional.
Absolutely. For me this is, as much as anything, an issue of culture. If the site had worked to establish a culture that upheld professionalism and integrity, it might still be necessary to discuss potential measures to protect against unprofessional practices and dishonesty, but it would feel less like trying to nail jelly to a wall. But the site, by its actions over the past few years, has made it more than clear that it is not actually bothered about professional standards. As such, it has, by default, encouraged and established an "anything goes" culture. That being the case, attempting to work out detailed rules and mechanisms to prevent dishonesty and unprofessional practice is like Canute telling the tide not to come in.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 10:54
Bahasa Cina hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| This is an important factor | Jun 22, 2012 |
Jessica Noyes wrote:
Not to lead the thread astray, I would like to mention that some people learn and speak a language in their homes and with their families, but never attend a school or university where that language is used for instruction -- and perhaps never even study the grammar of that "native language." These people, who would have spent years studying in L2 universities, could very conceivably translate better into their L2.
This is an important point that we could talk about much more easily if people were honest about their native languages. Sheila pointed out just now that false claims of English nativeness are rampant in my pair. If agencies and clients and Proz had a better idea of who the real natives/non-natives are, then we could have much more empirical discussions about what they can/can't do. At the moment, any debate about the subject tends to be very handwavy and emotional.
I understand the desire of Lillian, Kirsten and others to be fair to Europeans who grow up in linguistically complex environments, but that's really not the problem we're talking about here. Please go and check out Chinese-English translators. The vast majority of those who claim to be English native are just lying. It's not a kinda maybe situation. It's just a lie to get eligibility for jobs. I would certainly like to see some enforcement against that kind of behaviour.
How about an exception for cases like Dutch/Flemish, Spanish/Catalan? You could be allowed to put languages like these, in which there are very large bilingual populations, as double native languages without a peer test.
Lisa - I like the button idea. Not sure exactly what form it would take - presumably there would have to be a specific writing task completed within a certain time limit to prevent just posting stuff culled from the web. But a button keeps it nice and anonymous.
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Perancis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| See the bottom of the page | Jun 22, 2012 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Rachel Fell wrote:
What is the largest number of pages generated in a single day on one forum topic? 
Didn't count the pages, but 48 replies were generated on the second day of this forum thread.
I mean, it was only started yesterday and this is page 8!
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 20:54
Bahasa Jerman hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| What's missing | Jun 22, 2012 |
is an option to declare near-native proficiency (or something similar) when a translator believes her command of the target language is as good as that of actual native speakers. The typical "abuser" was born, raised and educated in the Netherlands (for example) and then spent several years in the UK or the US. In her profile she lists Dutch and English as her native languages, not necessarily because she's dishonest, but possibly because currently there is no other way to land jobs for which sh... See more is an option to declare near-native proficiency (or something similar) when a translator believes her command of the target language is as good as that of actual native speakers. The typical "abuser" was born, raised and educated in the Netherlands (for example) and then spent several years in the UK or the US. In her profile she lists Dutch and English as her native languages, not necessarily because she's dishonest, but possibly because currently there is no other way to land jobs for which she is sure she is qualified.
See this thread for some interesting contributions to the issue.
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/62666-english_native_speaker.html ▲ Collapse
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564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 03:54
Bahasa Denmark hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| A bit funny, really | Jun 22, 2012 |
I still don't get why so many of you consider this a big issue?
In all honesty, I couldn't care less whether people claim to have one, two or five native languages, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am a professional translator, and I am perfectly capable of assessing whether any information proposed on KudoZ, for instance, is valid or not. If I wasn't able to do that, I wouldn't work as a translator.
Anyone (any outsourcer) who wants to work with a professiona... See more I still don't get why so many of you consider this a big issue?
In all honesty, I couldn't care less whether people claim to have one, two or five native languages, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am a professional translator, and I am perfectly capable of assessing whether any information proposed on KudoZ, for instance, is valid or not. If I wasn't able to do that, I wouldn't work as a translator.
Anyone (any outsourcer) who wants to work with a professional translator will take the time to check this person's profile and establish a decent contact before assigning a job to them. I doubt very much that ProZ.com has the capacity to determine in some way or another whether anyone here should be 'entitled' to claim native proficiency in any language, and why would outsourcers trust such verification, anyway? Why would they risk wasting money on bad translators that they have not 'cleared' according to their own QA systems?
Maybe it is because there is no real problem in my language combination (Danish native, mainly translating into English, and YES, that is a lot easier than translating from English into my native Danish), not that I have noticed, at least. I can spot a non-Dane a mile off on KudoZ, but if they have useful comments to my questions, I still welcome them. Similarly, I feel at complete liberty to comment on questions asked by native English-speakers translating from Danish into English, because they are actually asking for help to understand MY language better to make sure to render a good translation. I would never claim to be a native speaker of English, though, what would the point be? I am Danish, full stop, one native language only.
I am wondering whether there are cultural differences at stake? Maybe 'native proficiency' simply means different things in different cultures? Just as 'fluency' can be interpreted as 'perfection' or 'the ability to speak without hesitation', respectively.
Is this a case of 'real' native (English) speakers being miffed that others are picking up jobs that are advertised for 'native English speakers' only? Again, it's a free market out there, ProZ.com is not representative of any kind of professional standards (not that I have noticed), and the level of job advertising is at such a low standard that anybody should be allowed to have a go at bidding for the jobs, whichever way they choose to do so. Maybe THAT will teach outsourcers to offer jobs at professional rates. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Perancis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| The issue(s) | Jun 22, 2012 |
In a sense, "why it matters" is similar to why other aspects of your profile matter. If I am looking for a colleague to assist me with a chemistry translation and they say they have worked in a laboratory for 5 years, then the degree of confidence/value that I can attribute to their judgements about chemistry terminology is higher "on average" than to somebody whose experience was 6 months in a physics lab. So if they say they've worked in a chemistry lab for 5 years, I expect them to have worke... See more In a sense, "why it matters" is similar to why other aspects of your profile matter. If I am looking for a colleague to assist me with a chemistry translation and they say they have worked in a laboratory for 5 years, then the degree of confidence/value that I can attribute to their judgements about chemistry terminology is higher "on average" than to somebody whose experience was 6 months in a physics lab. So if they say they've worked in a chemistry lab for 5 years, I expect them to have worked in a chemistry lab for 5 years, not to have worked in a physics lab for 6 months but thought that "physics lab for 6 months" was "near enough" to "chemistry lab for 5 years" to put the latter.
Now, there's always a "matching game" involved in any recruitment process both in and outside translation. The list of "requirements" for, say, an IT job are often the list of "buzzwords that a technically ignorant manager has found on the web and thinks are what a person needs to complete their task" rather than the list of actual requirements that a technically competent technician would need to complete the work that the manager needs to be completed. So a successful CV or application will also have the description of a person's actual skills coloured to fit in with the magic buzzwords that they think the recruiter expects to match against.
And in translation, it turns out that we see more of this "game of coloured representation" when it comes to the nativeness of speakers' target language than we do their experience of chemistry labs. The reasons for this are surely complex.
By "native English speaker", in the canonical case, we mean something like "an adult speaker educated to at least degree level who has lived all their life in a country where the primary language is English, has acquired English instinctively from birth, and has conducted all of their social and educational/working affairs in English". But we also know that in reality, pretty much the definition of being a competent translator means that you cannot possibly fit with that canonical case. We actually demand the conflicting scenario that the translator will have extensive linguistic and social experience in another language.
So when we say "native speaker", we actually must mean in practice some set of criteria which are "close enough" to the canonical case to not make any practical difference. And that's when things get fuzzy: what are the exact requisites that make an outsourcer declare that they require a "native speaker" (i.e. what do they *actually* have in mind), and what are the exact requisites for a translator validly declaring a language to be "native"? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Perancis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| The solution... but is it practical? | Jun 22, 2012 |
And so, following on from my previous post...
The ideal (but possibly impractical) solution would probably be to fine-tune the "native speaker" criterion to actually be a breakdown of what linguistic and social experience the speaker actually has in what language, and to allow outsourcers to search based on those criteria. For example:
- during what period of your life have you live in the country of "native" language?
- which parts of your education did you under... See more And so, following on from my previous post...
The ideal (but possibly impractical) solution would probably be to fine-tune the "native speaker" criterion to actually be a breakdown of what linguistic and social experience the speaker actually has in what language, and to allow outsourcers to search based on those criteria. For example:
- during what period of your life have you live in the country of "native" language?
- which parts of your education did you undertake in your "native" language?
- for each of your areas of specialisation, was/is your professional experience conducted in an environment that is predominantly in your "native" language?
...
In reality, I think this would be impractical. So maybe a compromise would be to rate on a scale your "nativeness" in each language, with guidance to what rating to put based on factors such as the above. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:54
Bahasa Portugis hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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TOPIC STARTER
Kim Metzger wrote:
is an option to declare near-native proficiency (or something similar) when a translator believes her command of the target language is as good as that of actual native speakers. The typical "abuser" was born, raised and educated in the Netherlands (for example) and then spent several years in the UK or the US. In her profile she lists Dutch and English as her native languages, not necessarily because she's dishonest, but possibly because currently there is no other way to land jobs for which she is sure she is qualified.
See this thread for some interesting contributions to the issue.
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/62666-english_native_speaker.html
Unfortunately grey areas are subject to abuse and this would be one of them. I take your point Kim and it's certainly a valid one but this "fictional abuser" is still the exception. She might still be able to convince the panel and qualify to have English as her native language. Failing that, there's nothing to stop her from offering that as a target language; what you have been verified in doesn't stop you from offering anything you like, it's up to the outsourcer to take a view on whether that floats their boat or not.
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Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:54
Bahasa Belanda hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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Neil Coffey wrote:
And so, following on from my previous post...
The ideal (but possibly impractical) solution would probably be to fine-tune the "native speaker" criterion to actually be a breakdown of what linguistic and social experience the speaker actually has in what language, and to allow outsourcers to search based on those criteria. For example:
- during what period of your life have you live in the country of "native" language?
- which parts of your education did you undertake in your "native" language?
- for each of your areas of specialisation, was/is your professional experience conducted in an environment that is predominantly in your "native" language?
...
In reality, I think this would be impractical. So maybe a compromise would be to rate on a scale your "nativeness" in each language, with guidance to what rating to put based on factors such as the above.
Another country that wouldn't qualify for this system. Luxembourgish is spoken in kindergarten and before, French in primary school (Luxembourgish spoken in a 2-hour citizen course), German as a foreign language started at the age of 7 and secondary school totally in German. Luxembourgers are proficient in all of them, but tend to 'prefer' one of them. Although, go to any place in the country and they will speak whatever of those three you address them in.
Which one is native according to the system above?
I think the largest problem with 'natives' who are not actually native is in pairs which are difficult pairs, subject to low rates or where they don't care/have other principles. Chinese is a good one, but I expect it is also the case in any pair which has agencies over there that pay rates for 'over there', i.e. low, too low for a European. And then there is the issue of the ratio work/translators available. How many adequate English translators would there be who know enough Chinese? Or even worse, how many in rarer pairs? Also for other languages of the Far East or the Middle East? Sure, there are bilingual people as in immigrants. Certainly into French, you could use that. However, those people are maybe proficient up to a certain level, but I would not be confident that if you gave them a proper text (technical, high-brow academic or something they don't really come across in a normal day-to-day setting), that they would understand it properly.
As a bilingual person it depends on how many natives of that language you speak to on a regular basis, how many registers, books etc. you have encountered. Otherwise, there is a good chance that a foreigner will have mastered it on a higher level.
Outsourcers surely do their research. If they see a Russian who claims to be 'native' in English and forgets his articles, then surely they will abandon that translator? Those agencies who pay too low don't care, and they would not employ a European anyway, so there is no use in trying to eradicate it. They would take a non-native anyway, whatever his native languages on here are and whether they are legitimate or not.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 10:54
Bahasa Cina hingga Bahasa Inggeris
| @Gitte - it's about how I represent myself | Jun 23, 2012 |
One of the primary ways in which I represent myself to the wider translation industry is through Proz. I choose to use Proz because it has many good features, including detailed information about translators and their native languages. However, if this native language information is untrue for a significant number of people on Proz (as it is in my pair), then outsourcers and other industry people must discount the information that I put on my profile. Of Chinese-English translators who claim to ... See more One of the primary ways in which I represent myself to the wider translation industry is through Proz. I choose to use Proz because it has many good features, including detailed information about translators and their native languages. However, if this native language information is untrue for a significant number of people on Proz (as it is in my pair), then outsourcers and other industry people must discount the information that I put on my profile. Of Chinese-English translators who claim to be English native on Proz, a majority are lying. An outsourcer thus cannot trust the information I provide through this channel.
Many jobs on Proz can only be bid for by those who meet the criteria. Outsourcers who want native English speakers to do their translations won't find them on Proz, they'll just find people willing to lie about their languages. Thus the better outsourcers will stop coming to Proz because the filter functions aren't serving their purpose.
It may not be a problem in your pair, but it is a real problem in some other pairs.
@Kirsten - "I think the largest problem with 'natives' who are not actually native is in pairs which are difficult pairs, subject to low rates or where they don't care/have other principles."
While admiring your Eurocentric principles, I remind you that the rest of the world does exist, and does use Proz. The fact that this issue may (or may not) be concentrated in non-European countries does not make it any less important.
Again, on the Luxembourg issue, I'd be happy to write in exceptions to the one-native-only rule - if you're in Luxembourg, you can claim more than one without testing.
As for the issue of translating into L2 - I think it's an interesting issue. But we can't even have that conversation until we have groundrules about honesty on the native question.
[Edited at 2012-06-23 04:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 03:54
Bahasa Denmark hingga Bahasa Inggeris
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| Thanks, Phil | Jun 23, 2012 |
... for shedding a bit more light on this. And I apologise for my Eurocentric view and lack of understanding. I had not realised that ProZ.com could actually be an important source of work to people, as it is practically useless to me in that sense. Mainly due to the 'native' issue, as loads of jobs, as you say, are offered only to 'native speakers' of my main target language, which is not my native language.
As the whole issue of stating one's native language up front, but not one'... See more ... for shedding a bit more light on this. And I apologise for my Eurocentric view and lack of understanding. I had not realised that ProZ.com could actually be an important source of work to people, as it is practically useless to me in that sense. Mainly due to the 'native' issue, as loads of jobs, as you say, are offered only to 'native speakers' of my main target language, which is not my native language.
As the whole issue of stating one's native language up front, but not one's top target language, is utterly biased towards the subjective theory that mother-tongue translation must always be preferential, I suggest that it would be much fairer simply to state nationality, or to leave out the issue altogether. That way, everybody would have to do their own research before randomly giving jobs to people based on whatever they have chosen to say on their profile here. If we start policing the site, what's next? Will people have to submit references for the statements they make about work experience, specialty subjects etc.?
I used to work for a translation agency and have seen loads and loads and loads of applications from hopeful wanna-be translators, native Danes whose proficiency in Danish was appalling. I have also assessed applications from a fair number of native English-speakers who claimed to be experts at translating from Danish into English, but whose sample translations (not tests that we prepared, but examples of their work, which we presumed to be representative of the best they could offer) showed a serious lack of understanding of Danish. Their 'nativeness' in either case was of no use to the assessment of their capacity as translators.
Being a 'native speaker' of a language does not a translator make. ▲ Collapse
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