| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Has using DeepL become the norm? How to calculate PEs? Thread poster: dieuebersetzung
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Hello all,
Not really sure in what forum to post this.
I run a small translation agency and for the last 10 years I’ve never had to deal with the topic of MT or PE. I’ve mostly worked with the same translators and that was never an issue.
This year however, I had to look for new translators for French and Italian and only contacted people who came recommended on proz. And out of five, all used DeepL without telling me before and while charging rates that I associate with hu... See more Hello all,
Not really sure in what forum to post this.
I run a small translation agency and for the last 10 years I’ve never had to deal with the topic of MT or PE. I’ve mostly worked with the same translators and that was never an issue.
This year however, I had to look for new translators for French and Italian and only contacted people who came recommended on proz. And out of five, all used DeepL without telling me before and while charging rates that I associate with human translation (8 to 12 cents per word).
Now I ask myself if I have been unlucky or if this has become the norm over the last few months/years.
This week I was looking for a Dutch translator for a very easy project and one of them offered me a rate of 8-9 cents and then, when asked (I’ve learned that I need to ask this nowadays) said that of course he was using MT and why not. Another one told me the same plus that he saw no reason to charge less for repetitions because “I invest in technology, why should I charge less for it?”.
Where is this industry heading?
I mean MT and PE are certainly very useful for many situations but is it ok to use it without making I t clear? Had I delivered that to my client and had he run his text through DeepL, he would have seen that 90%+ was unchanged. How can he not feel cheated? How can I not feel cheated? One French translator (one of the highest rated here with 50+ recommendations and who advertises with great quality, research plus proofreading by his colleague) charged 12 cents per word and delivered a translation that was so clearly MT that he not even bothered to deny it. He said he was pressed for time and even the PE was done sloppily, with inconsistent terminology that was easy to spot.
The way I see it is this: customers are asking for PE in some cases and if the text lends itself to it, why not, but then half the price should be charged. And if I as an agency order a translation then the default assumption should still be a HT, or am I seeing this wrong?
How can any translator deliver a job that was done 100% by DeepL plus a few touches here and there (mostly to disguise that MT was used, which is another problem as it actually can make the end result worse) and still ask a rate that is around 8 cent for German-standard languages? I don’t get it.
Would appreciate some thoughts.
Robert ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Redressing the balance when earning too little by using MT | Jul 16, 2021 |
Once I was offered a lump sum for a translation of xxxx words and I worked out that I would be earning my usual hourly rate/cents per word rate so I took it on. However the translation turned out to include many more technical terms than I was expecting and so I had to work very slowly and earned very little. Afterwards I found out that if I had used DeepL for some sentences I would have been able to finish the job more quicky and thus to end up getting my usual rate.
So would it have be... See more Once I was offered a lump sum for a translation of xxxx words and I worked out that I would be earning my usual hourly rate/cents per word rate so I took it on. However the translation turned out to include many more technical terms than I was expecting and so I had to work very slowly and earned very little. Afterwards I found out that if I had used DeepL for some sentences I would have been able to finish the job more quicky and thus to end up getting my usual rate.
So would it have been unethical to use DeepL or not? BTW I didn't have a detailed contract. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jo Macdonald 
Spain
Local time: 23:48
Italian to English
+ ...
| No PEMT tension | Jul 16, 2021 |
Hi Robert
I for one don't use MT when translating and I don't accept jobs I can't meet the deadline on as I can't stand that silly "everything is urgent" stress.
I only do MT jobs if I have nothing else to do (which is rarely) and when the client asks for it, and then it's full PEMT at about 65% of my rate for translation. I don't use any MT plugins and don't use DeepL unless the client is using it to MT the job.
I wouldn't work with someone who uses MT instead of... See more Hi Robert
I for one don't use MT when translating and I don't accept jobs I can't meet the deadline on as I can't stand that silly "everything is urgent" stress.
I only do MT jobs if I have nothing else to do (which is rarely) and when the client asks for it, and then it's full PEMT at about 65% of my rate for translation. I don't use any MT plugins and don't use DeepL unless the client is using it to MT the job.
I wouldn't work with someone who uses MT instead of translating the job themselves (on the sly). No problem if the job was supposed to be a PEMT job.
It's interesting to see (not so pro) translators losing points over things like this and hopefully agencies will start working with more professional people who deliver a quality job on time, taking the time to do the job themselves as a pro translator should.
I was under the impression it was mostly agencies losing points by imposing ridiculous deadlines, expecting a professional to be out of work all the time and immediately available, sending spam-like automated messages to mailing lists looking for just about anyone to get the job done quick, applying so many discounts the rate for the job ends up at about €0.01 making even answering the (probably automated) mail ... I just say NO.
It's great to see some of us have higher standards.
Let's stick together. ▲ Collapse
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Hi Jo,
you mention these agencies that send out mass mails and pay ridiculous rates below 4 cents per word.
And that I contrast with translators who think that at 9 cents it's ok to use MT and then spend some little time to edit the text.
If I would do this myself as a translator, I'd end up with a very handsome hourly rate for sure, maybe 5 times above what Im would get for a human translation.
And yet some think that's ok as long as the result is ok.
... See more Hi Jo,
you mention these agencies that send out mass mails and pay ridiculous rates below 4 cents per word.
And that I contrast with translators who think that at 9 cents it's ok to use MT and then spend some little time to edit the text.
If I would do this myself as a translator, I'd end up with a very handsome hourly rate for sure, maybe 5 times above what Im would get for a human translation.
And yet some think that's ok as long as the result is ok.
Maybe I'm overly pessimistic but what I've seen so far this year doesn't bode well for the industry.
My guess is that many of those who ask such rates for a quick PE are not telling their customers how they work and in the end it'll end up costing many of them and the agencies a lot of trust. ▲ Collapse
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| The proof of the pudding | Jul 16, 2021 |
Hi Robert,
To be sure, unedited MT is totally unprofessional.
For the rest, unless the use of MT is specifically banned, and as long as the translator uses a privacy-minded service (the API version of most MT services, or a Pro version of DeepL), using MT suggestions in a CAT tool context is not MTPE. I consider it fair game, MT being just one of the various available resources, such as CAT Tools, dictionaries, concordancers, TMs, glossaries etc. How a translator does t... See more Hi Robert,
To be sure, unedited MT is totally unprofessional.
For the rest, unless the use of MT is specifically banned, and as long as the translator uses a privacy-minded service (the API version of most MT services, or a Pro version of DeepL), using MT suggestions in a CAT tool context is not MTPE. I consider it fair game, MT being just one of the various available resources, such as CAT Tools, dictionaries, concordancers, TMs, glossaries etc. How a translator does their job is their own prerogative. With the following caveat:
They must take full ownership of the translation result.
Because the translator's mirror, what counts above all, is the delivered result. Is it fit for purpose? Is it the quality up to standard?
If it is not, and the text is merely edited MT, this adds insult to injury.
But the real injury is the poor quality of the delivered target document. Not the use of MT.
That said, I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences with professional translators found through ProZ.
I can assure you that many ProZ-registered colleagues uphold high quality standards, whether they use MT suggestions as part of their workflow or not.
Jean
PS: One must differentiate between the use of MT suggestions and commissioned MTPE. The latter is a different service altogether.
[Edited at 2021-07-16 14:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I guess it depends a lot on what they ask for it too.
As an example, I also noticed two translators I've worked with for around 8 years are now using DeepL.
You say it's fair game, but I think that it's not ok to charge the same rate for a work that now only takes a fraction of the time.
Had they told me that they're now editing a MT and only charge half the price I could have discussed it with my clients if they're ok with it provided of course that they too only pay half the ... See more I guess it depends a lot on what they ask for it too.
As an example, I also noticed two translators I've worked with for around 8 years are now using DeepL.
You say it's fair game, but I think that it's not ok to charge the same rate for a work that now only takes a fraction of the time.
Had they told me that they're now editing a MT and only charge half the price I could have discussed it with my clients if they're ok with it provided of course that they too only pay half the price.
And half the price would still mean a much higher hourly rate than before. Of course not all texts are so suited for MT but many are and then it's not a lot of effort to brush them up.
As it is, I feel betrayed and had my customers noticed it, they would feel the same way I'm sure. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
It's MTPE if *you* provide the MT and insist they work around it.
If they use CAT systems or MT tools, one of the following will occur:
1) Their output is quality and it is none of your business, nor do you care.
2) Their output is crap because they delivered untouched "Raw MT" that is bad, awkward, or just flat out wrong. You can and should be very outraged, this person is stealing from you.
3) Their output is crap because they suck. They edit... See more It's MTPE if *you* provide the MT and insist they work around it.
If they use CAT systems or MT tools, one of the following will occur:
1) Their output is quality and it is none of your business, nor do you care.
2) Their output is crap because they delivered untouched "Raw MT" that is bad, awkward, or just flat out wrong. You can and should be very outraged, this person is stealing from you.
3) Their output is crap because they suck. They edited the MT, but missed key errors or introduced new ones (my personal favorite is crude MT + human spelling errors). Both parties are at fault: you hired an incompetent person and then they tried but failed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 17:48
German to English
| Paying for the end product, not the process | Jul 16, 2021 |
Jean Dimitriadis wrote:
I consider it fair game, MT being just one of the various available resources, such as CAT Tools, dictionaries, concordancers, TMs, glossaries etc. How a translator does their job is their own prerogative.
[snip]
Because the translator's mirror, what counts above all, is the delivered result. Is it fit for purpose? Is it the quality up to standard?
[snip]
But the real injury is the poor quality of the delivered target document. Not the use of MT.
I agree with Jean.
Should a translation prepared with CAT software be paid less because the translator saved time by using such tools? Or used online glossaries instead of hardcopy dictionaries? Should translators be paid a lower rate if they consult with an expert on a highly-technical topic instead of relying on their own knowledge and resources?
From time to time I encounter phrases in documents that are unintelligible because the author with an insufficient knowledge of English has incorrectly rephrased an English-language source in German. When footnotes are lacking in such cases, Linguee/Deepl or GT has provided a key to unscrambling the sentence, especially if the author has relied on MT to comprehend the English source. I don't expect to be paid less if it takes 30 seconds to solve the problem instead of 10 minutes to figure out what the author intends.
[Edited at 2021-07-16 13:46 GMT]
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Eva Stoppa
Germany
Local time: 23:48
English to German
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| You also pay for the translator's expertise, not only for the time | Jul 16, 2021 |
Kevin Fulton wrote:
I agree with Jean.
Should a translation prepared with CAT software be paid less because the translator saved time by using such tools? Or used online glossaries instead of hardcopy dictionaries? Should translators be paid a lower rate if they consult with an expert on a highly-technical topic instead of relying on their own knowledge and resources?
From time to time I encounter phrases in documents that are unintelligible because the author with an insufficient knowledge of English has incorrectly rephrased an English-language source in German. When footnotes are lacking in such cases, Linguee/Deepl or GT has provided a key to unscrambling the sentence. I don't expect to be paid less if it takes 30 seconds to solve the problem instead of 10 minutes to figure out what the author intends.
Besides, it takes knowledge to figure out if a source is suitable for the given text or not. You not only pay for time spent, but also for the experience and professional knowledge of the translator. Were it only for the time spent, anyone could run Deepl or Google or any other MT and not bother for the correctness of the text.
I remember someone saying that only 10% is being paid for the time spent and 90% for the professinals's knowledge on how to deal with the subject matter.
A relative of mine once told me of a Cousin who wanted him to install a phone for her back in the 1990s. My relative was a specialist on that field and he knew what to do. When he was ready, the Cousin said: "Oh! Had I known that it was so simple, I could have done it myself!" The Point is, she didn't know. And that knowledge is what has to be paid for.
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This is not about using an online dictionary vs. a hard copy or about using MT to help unscramble a sentence. Also, dictionaries and TMs are something completely different from a software that does almost all the work for you.
It's about having a 50 page document that would take 7 days to translate using human translation vs. no time with MT and then maybe a day's work for PE.
And still some think it fair to charge (almost) the same rate.
I fear that customers want to participa... See more This is not about using an online dictionary vs. a hard copy or about using MT to help unscramble a sentence. Also, dictionaries and TMs are something completely different from a software that does almost all the work for you.
It's about having a 50 page document that would take 7 days to translate using human translation vs. no time with MT and then maybe a day's work for PE.
And still some think it fair to charge (almost) the same rate.
I fear that customers want to participate in technological progress too and I can't blame them.
I consider it philosophical to discuss points such as "you pay for the experience". That argument won't hold in a competitive market, I'm afraid. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Eva Stoppa
Germany
Local time: 23:48
English to German
+ ...
| ...until real injury is done | Jul 16, 2021 |
I consider it philosophical to discuss points such as "you pay for the experience". That argument won't hold in a competitive market, I'm afraid.
It won't until real injury is done. That is when you can tell an expert from a would-be professional.
Besides, everything is getting more expensive, never less expensive. Why should translators Charge less when they spend less time on a Job? Maintenance of glossaries is also something a translator Needs to take care of and it does ... See more I consider it philosophical to discuss points such as "you pay for the experience". That argument won't hold in a competitive market, I'm afraid.
It won't until real injury is done. That is when you can tell an expert from a would-be professional.
Besides, everything is getting more expensive, never less expensive. Why should translators Charge less when they spend less time on a Job? Maintenance of glossaries is also something a translator Needs to take care of and it does involve time. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 00:48
English to Russian
| There is only one criterion: the quality of translation | Jul 16, 2021 |
It doesn't matter what tools translators use during their work. If the final translation is good, who cares how they delivered it?
it's not ok to charge the same rate for a work that now only takes a fraction of the time. According to your logic, translators who don't use any tools to facilitate their work must earn more profit because they translate the same text longer. The longer you work, the more you earn...
Imagine you want to dig up a field. You have two proposals: a man with a shovel and a man with electric plough. The first guy will complete his job within a week. The second will do the same work within an hour. Does it mean that the first one should get a week pay, and the second one a 1-hour pay?
That's ridiculous.
[Edited at 2021-07-16 15:29 GMT]
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Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 23:48
Italian to English
+ ...
| Non-original parts | Jul 16, 2021 |
So I take my van in to the mechanic for a quick service, not cheap at 250 bucks, but well worth it for the peace of mind of a job well done, quality OEM filters and premium multigrade oil.
A year later the inner filter element breaks off the non-OEM oil filter, blocking the not so premium oil flow and starving the engine of oil.
An OEM filter costs 25 bucks (which is what I paid for), the cheapo filter cost 5 bucks, a new engine costs 5,000 bucks. That cheapo filter lo... See more So I take my van in to the mechanic for a quick service, not cheap at 250 bucks, but well worth it for the peace of mind of a job well done, quality OEM filters and premium multigrade oil.
A year later the inner filter element breaks off the non-OEM oil filter, blocking the not so premium oil flow and starving the engine of oil.
An OEM filter costs 25 bucks (which is what I paid for), the cheapo filter cost 5 bucks, a new engine costs 5,000 bucks. That cheapo filter looks almost exactly the same, does almost exactly the same job too, almost.
I’m looking for a new engine and a new mechanic; the old mechanic is looking for a lawyer, 5,000 bucks plus legal fees plus a clean reputation.
But perhaps some skunky lawyer can get that dirty old mechanic off as I didn’t specifically specify I needed quality OEM parts, and those poor old mechanics have to make an extra bob or two some way somehow, don’t they now?
[Edited at 2021-07-16 15:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Then, Robert, ... | Jul 16, 2021 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
It doesn't matter what tools translators use during their work. If the final translation is good, who cares how they delivered it?
... please tell us what prevents you from paying your translators by the time they actually have used (and logged) for their piece of work, as you have to for any other service you may buy and be in need of (for the plumber, electrician, car mechanic, etc.)? Isn't it obsolete by now to pay translators by "words" or lines, as if this was a material good like nails, potatoes or fish? Or may I take it that you don't trust your translators, that they may cheat you, by invoicing you too much time?
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Do you PAY people enough to live well off translating 35 pages per week?
And don't bother if you plan to start your response with "Well, if they move to Romania or maybe..."
dieuebersetzung wrote:
This is not about using an online dictionary vs. a hard copy or about using MT to help unscramble a sentence. Also, dictionaries and TMs are something completely different from a software that does almost all the work for you.
It's about having a 50 page document that would take 7 days to translate using human translation vs. no time with MT and then maybe a day's work for PE.
And still some think it fair to charge (almost) the same rate.
I fear that customers want to participate in technological progress too and I can't blame them.
I consider it philosophical to discuss points such as "you pay for the experience". That argument won't hold in a competitive market, I'm afraid.
[Edited at 2021-07-16 15:41 GMT]
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