| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Methods for verifying "native language" claims Thread poster: psicutrinius
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| Bogus native English claims come from everywhere, not just one region/group | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
My feeling is that many of the people who declared English
as their second native language might be people from Asia -- Singapore, Malaysia, and many other South Asian countries, where the variety of English spoken is very different from standard BE or AE, and they were just unjustly accused of lying by some people who have no knowledge about different varieties of English.
As to what is considered native proficiency of a language in the US, I just wanted to add, that some universities will take three years of high school in L1 as native for functional purposes, not necessarily a graduate diploma, and everything higher than that.
My feeling is that many of the people who declare(d) English as their second native language come from absolutely everywhere, including (and/or especially) Europe.
As to native proficiency in the US, universities will accept qualified applicants who show a minimum of proficiency in English (not 'native' proficiency) and they also accept a lower standard/level of English from non-native speakers than they would from people who really are natives. This actually holds true for all education, from primary up to and including graduate schools. Need I add that most universities require non-natives to take official tests in order to establish their level of English?
International schools that give their courses in English also accommodate non-native English speakers and grade them more leniently with regard to their English.
[Edited at 2012-08-14 18:38 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:47
Hebrew to English
| Since when..... | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I also checked with a friend of mine who is an English professor at one of the US universities,and he said that everybody who has education in English from a US university is considered a native speaker of English, if the person wants to be considered one.
Do university lecturers have the authority to declare ANYONE a native speaker of English, just because someone had enough money to study at a US university???
Plenty of foreign students study at US and UK universities, I can guarantee you they don't come away as native speakers and professors have no authority to declare them as such.
How silly.
[Edited at 2012-08-14 12:41 GMT]
| | | | | Hi, Write Away. | Aug 14, 2012 |
writeaway wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
My feeling is that many of the people who declared English
as their second native language might be people from Asia -- Singapore, Malaysia, and many other South Asian countries, where the variety of English spoken is very different from standard BE or AE, and they were just unjustly accused of lying by some people who have no knowledge about different varieties of English.
As to what is considered native proficiency of a language in the US, I just wanted to add, that some universities will take three years of high school in L1 as native for functional purposes, not necessarily a graduate diploma, and everything higher than that.
My feeling is that many of the people who declare(d) English as their second native language come from absolutely everywhere, including (and/or especially) Europe. As to native proficiency in the US, universities will accept qualified applicants who show a minimum of proficiency in English (not 'native' proficiency) and they also accept a lower standard/level of English from non-native speakers than they would from people who really are natives. This actually holds true for all education, from primary to including graduate schools. Need I add that most universities require non-natives to take official tests in order to establish their level of English? International schools that give their courses in English also accommodate non-native English speakers and grade them more leniently with regard to their English.
No, US universities do not administer any non-native tests to US permanent residents and citizens. Only foreign student have to take Toefl. US residents and citizens have to take the same English tests as any other students for the school to determine if they might need any remedial courses. Somebody with low quality English would not survive at most American Universities -- I mean the person could not progress and pass tests or write academic papers. If you think that the level at US universities is low, you might really be surprised.
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LilianBoland wrote:
Thank you, Bernhard. This is wonderful that nobody will be forced to do anything
and people can keep their real native languages in the unverified form.
I do not support your idea that "people can keep their real native languages in the unverified form".
Everyone who declares two or more native languages should be required to verify them BEFORE PEERS after expiration of an initial "unverified" period. That's already a given in this thread.
So, no, I don't think it's wonderful if (your suggestion) "nobody will be forced to do anything"; on the contrary, "verification" of two or more languages before peers is very important to counteract fraudulent claims.
"Optional" verification of two or more languages means you can, you must not. However, if you decide not to get verified, you should not be able to claim any of these languages as native language(s). You shouldn't expect that you can simply "claim" two or more native languages and never have to show any convincing proof that you really are a native speaker. That's why we have these fraudulent claims in the first place.
I wish you could either accept the premise and objective of this thread - developing/suggesting methods for verifying "native language" claims - or not post.
B
[Edited at 2012-08-15 00:39 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 01:47
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| University definition | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I also checked with a friend of mine who is an English professor at one of the US universities,and he said that everybody who has education in English from a US university is considered a native speaker of English, if the person wants to be considered one.
LilianBoland wrote:
As to what is considered native proficiency of a language in the US, I just wanted to add, that some universities will take three years of high school in L1 as native for functional purposes, not necessarily a graduate diploma, and everything higher than that.
Nonnative speaker of English
A person for whom the primary language in the home during childhood was not English, and who received all or most of their elementary, secondary, and undergraduate education outside the United States.
http://policy.umn.edu/policies/hr/performance/language.html
[Edited at 2012-08-14 16:11 GMT]
| | | | | Hi, Michele -- see, they confirm what I said | Aug 14, 2012 |
You can ask most employers that a person who has the same university education level and skills cannot be discriminated against based on some vague ideas of a native language. Everybody who has university education in English in the US is considered a native speaker of English for practical reasons at least, such as employment.
If someone does not have at least 3 years of high school, they cannot claim native fluency in L1 for practical reasons. They cannot be treated as bilingual people ... See more You can ask most employers that a person who has the same university education level and skills cannot be discriminated against based on some vague ideas of a native language. Everybody who has university education in English in the US is considered a native speaker of English for practical reasons at least, such as employment.
If someone does not have at least 3 years of high school, they cannot claim native fluency in L1 for practical reasons. They cannot be treated as bilingual people for employment purposes or university education.
This is really related to teaching assistants at the university -- your Minnesota link, for whom the requirements might be even higher. Yes, this is true if the person has most elementary, secondary and all undergraduate education in another language, the person is not considered a native speaker of English by them. Let's say, someone came to the United Stets at the age of 28, with very low level of English -- then studied the language and wanted to enter graduate school -- they would be considered, at that time, non-native speakers of English, for education purposes. After they have lived in the United States for a long time, and got two PhDs from US universities, their English might be considered native level.
[Edited at 2012-08-14 16:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | TOEFL requirements from some American universities | Aug 14, 2012 |
And, mind you, this is just TOEFL (Test of English as a FOREIGN Language)
University of Washington requirements for international students:
http://admit.washington.edu/Admission/International/EnglishProficiency
International freshman and transfer students must submit English proficiency test scores — from an exam taken on or before t... See more And, mind you, this is just TOEFL (Test of English as a FOREIGN Language)
University of Washington requirements for international students:
http://admit.washington.edu/Admission/International/EnglishProficiency
International freshman and transfer students must submit English proficiency test scores — from an exam taken on or before the published deadline — that meet the University of Washington’s minimum requirement for admission.
International students must submit English proficiency test scores that meet the minimum requirement for admission at the Seattle campus of the University of Washington. Exams must be taken on or before the published deadline. Official TOEFL or IELTS scores must be sent directly to the UW from the testing agency.
• Previous ESL coursework or English composition courses, even when taken in the United States, will not satisfy the English proficiency admission requirement.
• An associate degree from a community college does not exempt applicants from submitting English proficiency exam scores. All applicants must submit official TOEFL or IELTS scores to be eligible for admission consideration.
• International students currently enrolled in U.S. or Canadian schools must also submit official TOEFL or IELTS exam scores.
• Applicants who have not met the minimum English proficiency requirement by the application deadline or who have not taken one of the English proficiency exams by the deadline will not be considered for admission.
• The Seattle campus of the University of Washington does not offer conditional admission to students who have not yet met the minimum English proficiency requirement.
Exception: International students whose primary and secondary education took place in Australia, Canada (English-speaking provinces), Great Britain, Ireland, New Zealand, or the U.S. are exempt from this requirement. Students born in one of these countries yet educated elsewhere are still required to satisfy the English proficiency requirement.
Ohio State University
http://gradadmissions.osu.edu/TOEFL_requirement.html
For International Applicants and those who have held the status of U.S. Permanent Resident for less than one year.
Applicants whose native language is not English, must submit a recent, official Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) score or Michigan English Language Assessment Battery (MELAB) score.
Applicants who are citizens of, or who have received a bachelor's degree or higher from one of the following countries are exempt from the English proficiency requirement: Australia, Belize, the British Caribbean and British West Indies, Canada (except Quebec), England, Guyana, Ireland, Liberia, New Zealand, Scotland, the United States, and Wales. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I wasn't really talking about international students, | Aug 14, 2012 |
although some of it might apply to them as well - US permanent residents and citizens are not international students. They are not required to take any Toefl exams.
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| Some examples of American universities asking TOEFL to permanent residents | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
although some of it might apply to them as well - US permanent residents and citizens are not international students. They are not required to take any Toefl exams.
The University of Massachusetts does not require TOEFL from U.S. citizens. Permanent residents whose undergraduate institution is outside of the United States and not from an English speaking country will be required to demonstrate their English language proficiency by sitting for TOEFL.
http://www.umass.edu/gradschool/admissions/admissions-requirements
Permanent Residents also need to provide the TOEFL score or qualify for a TOEFL exemption. Please see TOEFL Requirements and Exemptions for more information.
http://www.twu.edu/admissions/permanent-residency.asp
Please note that permanent resident applicants may still be subject to the English proficiency requirement as stipulated below.
http://www.foster.washington.edu/academic/emba/Pages/InternationalApplications.aspx
For US citizens or permanent residents with foreign credentials, if your native language is not English and you do not hold a degree from an institution in the US or one of the anglophone countries and areas previously listed, you will be required to submit TOEFL or IELTS scores.
http://www.international.umd.edu/ies/97
Ohio State University
http://gradadmissions.osu.edu/TOEFL_requirement.html
For International Applicants and those who have held the status of U.S. Permanent Resident for less than one year.
Applicants whose native language is not English, must submit a recent, official Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) score or Michigan English Language Assessment Battery (MELAB) score.
| | | | | I feel like a broken record | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
You can ask most employers that a person who has the same university education level and skills cannot be discriminated against based on some vague ideas of a native language. Everybody who has university education in English in the US is considered a native speaker of English for practical reasons at least, such as employment. ...
Are you accusing us of wanting to discriminate against members of Proz.com because we don't want to allow lies?
Come on!
No one excludes non-natives from wanting to become translators (although it's really not a good idea for the target language). But a lie is reason enough to fire you from any job.
Vague idea of a native language?
Where did you grow up and what language did you speak in school?
Your statement:
Everybody who has university education in English in the US is considered a native speaker of English for practical reasons at least, such as employment. ...
Who says? You, and who else?
Just because you are accepted at a US university and have passed English proficiency exams does not make you a native speaker.
It's always the same: you are advocating that certain non-native speakers who speak English should be considered "native speakers" on this portal because they "know" enough English because they "declared" and are "unverified" speakers of two or more languages.
Who are these people? Many of them are so bad at English that it's obvious it's not true.
Nobody should be allowed to say that they are a native speaker of two languages if they are NOT. It's very unlikely anybody is a true native speaker of two or more languages.
Which part of Michele's quote do you not understand? It clearly shows you what it would take to become and be considered a native speaker of a language, in this case, US English.
Even if you did never attend a university, no one will ever consider you a native speaker if you haven't used that language from a very early stage in life and then continuously used it for many years.
Native language definition (US English):
All of this:
Your primary language in the home during childhood was English.
You received all or most of your elementary, secondary, (and undergraduate) education in the United States.
If that's not the case, you are always going to be a non-native speaker, for any and all purposes, no matter how long you have lived in an English-speaking country.
And that fact won't change, no matter how many times you refuse to accept it and continue to tell us otherwise.
Michele Fauble wrote: Nonnative speaker of English A person for whom the primary language in the home during childhood was not English, and who received all or most of their elementary, secondary, and undergraduate education outside the United States. http://policy.umn.edu/policies/hr/performance/language.html
B
edited
[Edited at 2012-08-15 00:30 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 01:47
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| International Teaching Assistant (ITA) test | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
You can ask most employers that a person who has the same university education level and skills cannot be discriminated against based on some vague ideas of a native language. Everybody who has university education in English in the US is considered a native speaker of English for practical reasons at least, such as employment.
When employing Teaching Assistants (TA's), American universities determine whether the applicant is, or is not, a native speaker based on an objective definition of native speaker, specifically a definition that specifies that a person who has grown up speaking a language other than English at home, and has been educated abroad, is not a native speaker of English.
Applicants who have been determined to be non-native speakers of English are then required to take and pass a test to demonstrate high proficiency in English.
International Teaching Assistant (ITA) Test
Evaluates whether students have the robust academic fluency to communicate effectively in the U.S. classroom. The test is a teaching simulation in front of a jury of raters, and is a rigorous test given that the level of fluency needed to teach students is much higher than that needed to be a student or to give prepared talks.
www.cmu.edu/icc/testing/index.shtml
| | | | | Very sorry, Bernhard, but US universities don't | Aug 14, 2012 |
require Toefl exams from US students who have been permanent residents of the United States for over a year, or US citizens. You can call some Universities if you don't believe me. Even you could probably be considered bilingual, if you cared, since as far as I remember you said all your college education had been in English. The United States has very peculiar laws as far as language discrimination is concerned -- high should students can even choose any variety of English they want to speak as... See more require Toefl exams from US students who have been permanent residents of the United States for over a year, or US citizens. You can call some Universities if you don't believe me. Even you could probably be considered bilingual, if you cared, since as far as I remember you said all your college education had been in English. The United States has very peculiar laws as far as language discrimination is concerned -- high should students can even choose any variety of English they want to speak as long as it does not include explicit politically incorrect language.
I am very sorry, but you (general you) really need a lot of linguistic education and knowledge in the area of sociolinguistics to understand the problem. With all my respect, many people with marketing or other business education will never understand it, just like I will probably never understand marketing.
I am really done with this thread, most likely -- I said all I felt I wanted to say, and I don't want to sound like a broken record. Some of the opinions I expressed have been confirmed by university professors -- so this is not something I made up. I honestly believe that not too many people lie on this site -- they might just be misunderstood or their variety of English is looked down at. I don't have any personal interests in this thread, whatsoever, believe me. I don't even bid on jobs. I may get interested in some offers from time to time, but nothing on a regular basis. I really don't care if I declare a native language or not, or perhaps declare all the languages I can declare as native, for one reason or another, just some of the opinions expressed here have literally shocked me.
[Edited at 2012-08-14 19:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-14 20:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 10:47
Italian to English
| native versus proficient or fluent | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
everybody who has education in English from a US university is considered a native speaker of English, if the person wants to be considered one.
This is patently untrue; one does not become a native speaker of English by attending university in an English-speaking country.
Fluent or proficient, perhaps, but not native.
Lilian: what is your understanding of the difference between a native English speaker and a proficient English speaker? Or the difference between a native English speaker and someone who speaks English fluently (but is not a native English speaker)? In many if not most or perhaps even all cases, I would hazard that most people here and elsewhere would use 'proficient' or 'fluent' in place of your 'native'.
edited for typo
[Edited at 2012-08-14 21:02 GMT]
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 10:47
Italian to English
| varieties of English and the definition of an English translation | Aug 14, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
My feeling is that many of the people who declared English as their second native language might be people from Asia -- Singapore, Malaysia, and many other South Asian countries, where the variety of English spoken is very different from standard BE or AE, and they were just unjustly accused of lying by some people who have no knowledge about different varieties of English.
The thing is, and this is an honest question, do clients hiring translators to produce professional English translations ask for translations in Singapore English or Malaysian English? Do they ask for the English of the Indian subcontinent? Do they ask for African English? I only ever encounter clients looking for either American or British English, so I honestly don't know.
What is an English translation, taking into consideration the large number of countries that designate English as an official (if not the official) language, besides the US, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc.?
Again, this is a honest question: does anyone know the answer? Are we even talking about people from countries in the Indian subcontinent or in Africa etc. that have English as an official language? How sticky or clear-cut is this issue?
Lilian: I can say (and have said - many times in fact) that my interest in this topic stems from the fact that there are droves of translators in my language pair claiming English as a second native language when it is very clearly not - I am not threatened by them in the slightest but do not wish to belong to a professional site that turns a blind eye to blatently unprofessional behaviour. So no, in my case at least the translators at issue are not people who simply have a different variety of English as a native language.
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