| 话题中的页数: [1 2] > | Are discounts for fuzzy matches stealing? 论题张贴者: Jeff Whittaker
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If we charge an agency .14 a word and are asked to accept .07 a word (or 50%) for a fuzzy match, the client is still being billed .25 a word (full price). Before CAT tools, we used to be paid for these "matches" in full and now we are being asked for a discount even though we are in essence doing the same amount of work as before and the client is still paying the full price.
I started thinking about this after reading Steve Vitek's blog post: "There is Really Nothing Fuzzy About th... See more If we charge an agency .14 a word and are asked to accept .07 a word (or 50%) for a fuzzy match, the client is still being billed .25 a word (full price). Before CAT tools, we used to be paid for these "matches" in full and now we are being asked for a discount even though we are in essence doing the same amount of work as before and the client is still paying the full price.
I started thinking about this after reading Steve Vitek's blog post: "There is Really Nothing Fuzzy About the Logic or the Concept of Fuzzy Matches" (link below) wherein he explains that offering a discount for this is rather illogical because a per-word rate is only an arbitrary system and any reduced effort we may have in translating similar words or sections in one part of the document is offset by the hours and hours of research we have to do in other sections so that: "Instead, the logic of “fuzzy matches” is really the logic of getting something for nothing, a very old concept also known as stealing." He also writes that a certain project manager was rude by "assuming that my price per word is only a springboard to fabulous discounts... for the privilege of finally having some work."
http://patenttranslator.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/there-is-really-nothing-fuzzy-about-the-logic-of-the-concept-of-fuzzy-matches/
[Edited at 2013-04-30 16:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-04-30 20:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Coada (X) 
英国
Local time: 02:13
Portuguese葡萄牙语译成English英语
+ ...
| Of course it's stealing! | Apr 30, 2013 |
No, wait, it's not, because we are giving up our pay VOLUNTARILY.
But I hold my head up high. I never give CAT tool discounts, I do not even use a CAT tool. I love dictating my translations - voice recognition rocks. It's nobody's business how I save time and increase my productivity.
| | | | | My (specific) concept | Apr 30, 2013 |
I never gave any discount on fuzzy matches. Actually, they require extra care from me to check exactly was does and doesn't match. I understand their purpose as a way to keep exactly the same writing style in similar phrases.
However I have special issues with repetitions, and I give them for free on jobs over 5,000 words.
My major specialty in translation is management development training packages. Such a program usually has at least a course leader/instructor/facilit... See more I never gave any discount on fuzzy matches. Actually, they require extra care from me to check exactly was does and doesn't match. I understand their purpose as a way to keep exactly the same writing style in similar phrases.
However I have special issues with repetitions, and I give them for free on jobs over 5,000 words.
My major specialty in translation is management development training packages. Such a program usually has at least a course leader/instructor/facilitator's guide, participants' workbooks, PowerPoint presentation(s), and often a few other things that we'll ignore for the sake of this exercise.
Many segments get repeated verbatim in all three items, for the sake of course consistency. The budget-conscious client will have me translate only the leader's guide, which usually has most of - if not all - the content in the other two. Then they'll get a potentially sesquilingual staff member to painstakingly (i.e. manually) locate, copy and paste in the proper places and format the translated segments from what I delivered, and translate the best way they can whatever is missing (e.g instructions on workbooks, speaker notes on PPTs, etc.).
So, if they give me all three (in this example) publications to translate, they won't have to pay for segments repeated within the same nor the other publications. On the other hand, I'll translate (professionally, and get paid for) all "new" segments in the publications they'd otherwise not have me work on, and spare their staff from one helluva lot of work.
Repetitions in this case are no-brainers, I just Alt+Dn them (WF). So I'll be delivering my clients great value at practically no extra cost to me. On the other hand, they won't even think of any other discounts or lower rates. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
荷兰
Local time: 03:13
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Afrikaans南非语
+ ...
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
1. If we charge an agency .14 a word and are asked to accept .07 a word (or 50%) for a fuzzy match, the client is still being billed .25 a word (full price).
2. Offering a discount for this is rather illogical because a per-word rate is only an arbitrary system and any reduced effort we may have in translating similar words or sections in one part of the document is offset by the hours and hours of research we have to do in other sections...
These are actually two separate and independent points. The one does not lead to the other.
1. I'm under the impression that most of my agency clients do actually pass on the discounts to their clients, and that if I refuse to give a discount, they either absorb the cost or find a translator with whom they can break even.
2. Yes, the per-word system is only a system, but what you're saying is illogical: you're suggesting that the more fuzzy matches there are, the more effort will be required by other parts of the text (in order to make that objection stick).
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Ty Kendall
英国
Local time: 02:13
Hebrew希伯来语译成English英语
| Totally agree | Apr 30, 2013 |
Diana Coada, BA ACIL wrote:
I never give CAT tool discounts, I do not even use a CAT tool. I love dictating my translations - voice recognition rocks. It's nobody's business how I save time and increase my productivity.
I couldn't agree more.
| | | | | Usual story of the poor translator being forced into slavery | Apr 30, 2013 |
It's the usual reaction by people who think that if a particular practice is "in general use" (aka "something that some people do"), we are all forced to abide by it.
To quote from the blog:
We are always told not to worry about the fuzziness of the one-way communication between the very important people who run everything and the rest of us who have to do the real work, such as the fuzziness of methods used to calculate statistical data.
Well, I may not be very important in the scheme of things but I do run my own business, nobody else runs it for me, and nobody forces me to do any work I don't want to do, for any terms I don't want to agree to.
"The project consists of translating a manual for [insert the name of the gizmo]. We have some Trados translation memory matching – there are 5,868 new words, 8,232 100% matches, 573 repetitions, and 2534 fuzzy matches."
I’m afraid I was quite rude in my response to this project manager, although not nearly as rude as the project manager was to me, without even realizing it, by assuming that my price per word is only a springboard to fabulous discounts
It's clear from the number of 100% matches that this is either an update, or a new manual quite similar to a previous one. It's ideal for CAT use so why not make use of the technology available so that everyone can profit. This translator had no call to be rude: he only had to say "No thanks".
At least 40% of translators and probably more do not use these tools, because although they may be very suitable for example for translating repetitive updates of software or computer manuals, they would be mostly or completely useless in other translation fields, namely fields that require creativity, experience and good writing skills, while other translators will probably not acknowledge that they do use them even if they do … because they don’t want to be forced to give discounts.
I'm in that last category - I'm in marketing so I rarely get matches and I rarely use those that I do get. I don't even bother to analyse the files - but I acknowledge my Wordfast use if asked. I don't offer CAT discounts as such, and I certainly couldn't be "forced" to accept them.
a fuzzy concept of “full, partial, and fuzzy matches” that some translation agencies are trying to wield like a mighty sword beating down any hopes that translators might be able to make a decent living if they accept the Shylockian logic of this concept.
This writer is certainly wasted on scientific translations when he can write such emotive prose.
But you would get those few cents only for the first occurrence of this word. After that, “Trados translation memory matching” would reduce your remuneration
What? Oh yes, I remember now that he said earlier
I did not then and do not now use any computer memory tools
It's that popular misconception anti-CAT translators have about the meaning of word matches (full or fuzzy) when using CAT tools.
As a CAT-tool user who doesn't offer discounts for matches, I recently did a long translation for a direct client just before the source text underwent a comprehensive rewrite. Oops! Rather than demanding payment in full for this second text, my CAT tool allowed me to offer my very worried client a 75% discount on about 50% of the text (100% matches from my own TM). My client was mightily relieved at being able to tell her boss that the damage was limited, and I made a handsome profit. Positive outcome for all concerned. Yes, I had to buy Wordfast, train on it, etc - I haven't conveniently forgotten that.
This blog entry has really very little to do with CAT tools, and everything to do with the average translator's self-image. Our industry is full of self-employed people who have an employee, even servile, mindset, and are only too willing to be taken advantage of. Why do we, freelance translators, insist on reinforcing the idea that we have absolutely no say in the way we run our businesses? Do we suffer from some sort of collective death-wish?
I spend a lot of my free time trying to help independent entrepreneurs run their businesses, and actually act like entrepreneurs. This type of blog infuriates me.
Rant over!
| | | | Thayenga
德国
Local time: 03:13
正式会员 (自2009)
English英语译成German德语
+ ...
| Fuzzy or no matches are still words | Apr 30, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I never gave any discount on fuzzy matches. Actually, they require extra care from me to check exactly was does and doesn't match. I understand their purpose as a way to keep exactly the same writing style in similar phrases.
I have never given any discounts on anything less than 100% matches, and the 100% match discount only applies for non-creative projects. Even those 100% matches need to be read and checked.
One example would be the little word "is". This two-letter word can have quite a few meaning such as: "He is going to... whatever" or "she is tired" or "it's..." There are plenty of translation options to choose from depending on the context. And no CAT tool can do this for me. Consequently, the only appropriate discount on these fuzzy matches would be if I could just pick the first translation offered by the CAT tool. But even this takes time. And it is, aside from the work I'm doing, my time to be paid for, to which I feel quite entitled.
Although I do state that I'm using Word Fast Pro, there is no "a forehand garanteed" discount on any type of matches. This, however, doesn't mean that they can't be negotiated on a case by case basis under the right prerequisites.
| | | | NataliaAnne
巴西
Local time: 22:13
Portuguese葡萄牙语译成English英语
| No fuzzy matches for me! | Apr 30, 2013 |
I absolutely agree with all those against fuzzy matches; I just don’t do them. However, I think discounts for 100% matches are reasonable in situations like those described by José and Sheila, that is, where whole chunks of text are repeated.
In the rare instances where an agency tries to push me to accept fuzzy matches, I simply state that my base rate would have to increase significantly to take the different discounts into account and that I would also have to charge an admin... See more I absolutely agree with all those against fuzzy matches; I just don’t do them. However, I think discounts for 100% matches are reasonable in situations like those described by José and Sheila, that is, where whole chunks of text are repeated.
In the rare instances where an agency tries to push me to accept fuzzy matches, I simply state that my base rate would have to increase significantly to take the different discounts into account and that I would also have to charge an administration fee to deal with the more detailed invoicing etc. Surprise, surprise, the agencies in question have always decided my set rate is fine after all…lol ▲ Collapse
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neilmac
西班牙
Local time: 03:13
Spanish西班牙语译成English英语
+ ...
It's just another example of agency flim-flam or jiggery-pokery, but not really "stealing" per se. More like time-wasting IMHO.
And "getting something for nothing" isn't always stealing either, it might just be dumb luck...
| | | | Sarah McDowell
加拿大
Local time: 20:13
正式会员 (自2012)
Russian俄语译成English英语
+ ...
| But how do you know? | Apr 30, 2013 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
If we charge an agency .14 a word and are asked to accept .07 a word (or 50%) for a fuzzy match, the client is still being billed .25 a word (full price).
How do you know that the client is being billed the full price for fuzzy matches? Perhaps it is the clients that are asking the agencies for fuzzy match discounts.
Anyways, I don't agree with the idea of fuzzy match discounts. Lately, I have seen that some agencies even have a fuzzy match discount embedded into their contractor agreements. This makes it impossible to sign their agreements, because in doing so you would be agreeing to their discount scheme for all work that you complete for them.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
印度
Local time: 06:43
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Hindi印地语
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Agreed this is a pain in the neck | May 1, 2013 |
The entire CAT tool industry is based on this spin that their use helps recycle translation effort and thus enhances productivity, efficiency and reduces the time required for completing projects.
Take away this spin and the CAT tool industry stool will be left standing on two legs.
Since huge investments have been made by the manufacturers of these tools, they are going to push this logic further and further. They are better organized and have more financial muscle tha... See more The entire CAT tool industry is based on this spin that their use helps recycle translation effort and thus enhances productivity, efficiency and reduces the time required for completing projects.
Take away this spin and the CAT tool industry stool will be left standing on two legs.
Since huge investments have been made by the manufacturers of these tools, they are going to push this logic further and further. They are better organized and have more financial muscle than us freelancer translators.
Of course we pick up the bill for the enhanced productivity, efficiency and saved time, but do we have any real option? Theoretically we can refuse to give fuzzy discounts, but then we would lose out on competitiveness.
I am ambivalent on this issue - while I hate fuzzy discounts, I sometimes end up accepting these for some clients. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The key to to matter | May 1, 2013 |
To me the key to the matter is not to accept memories containing bad work from other people.
The problem with CAT rates happens when you receive a memory in an appalling state and are paid less for the same effort, which is retranslating very many segments and fixing other people's mistakes. Every time we get a memory in that shape, we should clearly make the customer aware of the issue and renegotiate the CAT rates, or simply charge the full rate.
If the memory contain... See more To me the key to the matter is not to accept memories containing bad work from other people.
The problem with CAT rates happens when you receive a memory in an appalling state and are paid less for the same effort, which is retranslating very many segments and fixing other people's mistakes. Every time we get a memory in that shape, we should clearly make the customer aware of the issue and renegotiate the CAT rates, or simply charge the full rate.
If the memory contains my own work and translating a job takes me less time, charging the full rate for the whole wordcount sounds like stealing to me, because I would ask to be paid for an effort I did not do. ▲ Collapse
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Are discounts for fuzzy matches stealing?
No
Discounts are a business concept and when used correctly will make you rich.
The richest persons in Germany are running discounters (Aldi, Lidl). As a freelancer I tried to use discounts (fuzzy matches) as a business concept too, and as far as I see it, it worked to my advantage.
To give you an example, I completed 1700 highly repetitive projects (not documents) for 1 customer with the TM I b... See more Are discounts for fuzzy matches stealing?
No
Discounts are a business concept and when used correctly will make you rich.
The richest persons in Germany are running discounters (Aldi, Lidl). As a freelancer I tried to use discounts (fuzzy matches) as a business concept too, and as far as I see it, it worked to my advantage.
To give you an example, I completed 1700 highly repetitive projects (not documents) for 1 customer with the TM I built over time. I don't think it would have been wise to charge them 1700 times for the same translation. I found it much better to charge them 10% for repetitions and 100% matches and 50% for 85-99% matches.
How often kann you sell your own work to the same customer without feeling guilty of stealing money from them.
[Edited at 2013-05-01 07:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
荷兰
Local time: 03:13
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Afrikaans南非语
+ ...
| The two videos on that blog | May 1, 2013 |
In case anyone's wondering about the two utterly unrelated music videos on that blog, see here:
http://www.searchenginepeople.com/blog/embedded-video-ranking.html
==
The blog writer wrote:
For instance, unemployment statistics do not count as unemployed people who work part-time because there is no full-time work for them, or who no longer bother to contact the unemployment office because they have not been able to find employment for a long time...
I'm not sure where he gets his odd definition from, but his point is made anyway: a statistic doesn't always mean what you think it means. Many unemployment figures do not include people who haven't actually looked for work in the past month, so the actual number of people who don't have a job may be much higher.
...and inflation statistics do not include prices of food, medicine, and fuel (because they are “too volatile”!), etc.
I could not find any CPI (consumer price index) in the world that excludes food, medicine and fuel from the main price index -- perhaps the blogger could tell us which country and which index he is referring to? Again, his point is taken, namely that "inflation rate" may not mean exactly what you think it means. However, I disagree with his conspiracy theory that "The real reason why these prices are excluded from statistics is to prevent people from knowing what the real inflation numbers are."
I received an e-mail this morning which said: ... "We have some Trados translation memory matching – there are 5,868 new words, 8,232 100% matches, 573 repetitions, and 2534 fuzzy matches."
I’m afraid I was quite rude in my response to this project manager, although not nearly as rude as the project manager was to me, by assuming that my price per word is only a springboard to fabulous discounts that I would be glad to give to this agency...
Well, it is unfortunate that we don't see the rest of the agency's letter to the blog writer, but I don't think it is rude of the agency to give the translator an idea of the amount of types of work that will be involved in the project.
In this case, there would be about 8000 words of proofreading (so you can calculate how long that would take) plus about 2500 words of heavy editing (so you can calculate how long that would take) plus about 6000 words of translation (so, again, you can calculate how long that would take). Taken together, the translator can calculate how long it will take and use his hourly rate to give a quick estimate of price (or, he can evaluate whether the agency's offered rate is a fair offer for the amount of work).
To reiterate: this places the translator in a position to give a broad estimate of how long the work will take to do, and to give a very rough estimate of how much it will cost, before the translator had even seen the text. Whether the translator accepts the client's suggested or requested price or discount scheme is entirely up to negotiation, and these figures help both parties know more or less what they are dealing with.
I don’t use computer memory tools because I don’t need them. As long as I remember what it is that I am translating, I can always find repetitive passages in my translation of the first [text] quite easily, cut and paste them into my second translation, and then carefully proofread everything to make sure that I did not miss anything.
Well, that's the crunch of the matter, isn't it? The blog writer doesn't have a CAT tool, so when a job comes by that requires a CAT tool, he is angry and upset that he has to tell the agency that he can't accept the job.
I used to work inhouse for a company that translated legal notices, and the established way to do it was using the method described by the blog writer, namely to find similar-looking pieces of text manually in old translations, paste them into the current translation, and then very carefully proofreading it to make sure that the translation is correct. After a year of this, I myself switched over to using a CAT tool that segmented by sentence, and I was able to increase my productivity several-fold compared to the other poor saps who still did it the way their predecessors told them to do it, with no reduction in the quality of translation. Sadly, some of my fellow translators were so computer illiterate that I was unable to train them to use CAT (despite being excellent translators), even though they were astounded every time they stopped by my cubicle.
[Edited at 2013-05-01 08:37 GMT]
| | | | Maciek Drobka
波兰
Local time: 03:13
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Polish波兰语
+ ...
I give CAT-based discounts and don't feel at a disadvantage.
To clarify, I work with my own TMs for approx. 80-90% of my clients. These TMs have been mostly built form scratch for that particular client. To put things simply, it just wouldn't feel right to charge the client my full rate if the only thing that changes in a long sentence is, say, a new product or feature name.
I think it's a win-win situation for both my clients and myself.
About another thin... See more I give CAT-based discounts and don't feel at a disadvantage.
To clarify, I work with my own TMs for approx. 80-90% of my clients. These TMs have been mostly built form scratch for that particular client. To put things simply, it just wouldn't feel right to charge the client my full rate if the only thing that changes in a long sentence is, say, a new product or feature name.
I think it's a win-win situation for both my clients and myself.
About another thing mentioned in the original post, I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement to say that agencies charge their clients their full word rate irrespective of CAT-based match level. As far as I can tell (based on my dealings with a few fellow translators turned agency owners), agencies (or at least some of them) do pass CAT-based discounts on to their clients.
Maciek ▲ Collapse
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