| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Don't offer reductions for post-editing Thread poster: Nicholas Miller
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Lieven Malaise wrote: Tom in London wrote:
CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools If those tools make him work faster, you will definitely pay less.
Please send me the email address of your plumber.
(Just joking. I already have a very good plumber.)
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Ice Scream wrote:
I don't feel particularly threatened because 85% of my time is spent tarting up my own raw translation output. So even if MT does eventually match my first draft, it won't be a massive hit.
This is what I do, too, except that I use MT as a tool to speed up the production of that first, raw draft. Then I spend the 85% of my time turning that into a high-quality translation.
Anybody who suggests I should discount my work because of that, or even to discount the first 15% of the process, will be politely asked to leave the building.
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:15
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| A very simplified conclusion | Jan 21, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Tom in London wrote:
CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools If those tools make him work faster, you will definitely pay less.
Maybe a logic for sweatshops in certain countries. Fast production, low prices, etc.
You don't pay for the time only, but also the expertise.
I don't control, manage or impose tools that my plumber will use. They don't charge hourly. They charge flat fees. Whether it'll take them 5 minutes or 3 hours, they want it not to be my business, as long as they solve the problem successfully.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 13:15
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
In Belgium plumbers are paid by the hour. They will charge a complete hour for every started hour, but they are definitely paid by the hour. A flat fee seems odd, to be honest.
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| Great post that echoes much of my thinking. | Jan 21, 2023 |
My largest issue with MT is that it threatens to dilute my thought process.
I'm a minimalist writer and a proponent of 'dynamic equivalence' in translation, so I always try to reproduce the source meaning with maximum precision and fewest words possible.
Automatic drafts are a major setback in this regard.
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Nicholas Miller wrote:
Is it logical to keep accepting more and more compromises? Not draw the line anywhere?
Don't accept these projects? Okay, use of these MT translation systems is cropping up everywhere, so how about meeting halfway? If agencies value their translators... many obviously don't...
I think you’re drawing the line in the wrong place. It has to be all or nothing.
Feeding the machine at full price is still digging your own grave.
In the words of the Manic Street Preachers, if you tolerate this then your children will be next.
| | | | | The profit margin benefits LSPs, not their end clients | Jan 22, 2023 |
This fast-growing trend and practice of MTPE translations stem mainly from LSPs - scarcely from their end clients.
Whether they ask their outsourcers to work on full-translation projects or MTPEs, it doesn't make any difference at all for their end clients because they are somehow charged the same... (The end client is kept in the dark.)
By contrast, there is a world of difference for LSPs' outsourcers who doesn't earn the same fee, whether they are paid for a full-tran... See more This fast-growing trend and practice of MTPE translations stem mainly from LSPs - scarcely from their end clients.
Whether they ask their outsourcers to work on full-translation projects or MTPEs, it doesn't make any difference at all for their end clients because they are somehow charged the same... (The end client is kept in the dark.)
By contrast, there is a world of difference for LSPs' outsourcers who doesn't earn the same fee, whether they are paid for a full-translation project or for a MTPE project (usually half the common used rate, most of the time).
The "world of difference" - I mean the profit margin - is pocketed by LSPs. Their client never get a sniff of that. Above all, the said clients are blissfully unaware that their preferred translation agency have most their own outsourcers by the balls (pardon my French).
At the end of the day, LSPs sweep the board... because they deftly "use" their outsourcers as an adjustment variable to raise their profit margin and make a bundle of money.
When working with LSPs, we all are nothing else but an adjustment variable.
We should think of that. Seriously.
Greetings!
[Modifié le 2023-01-23 19:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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The conclusion from that article.
"Yes, machine translation is the future of translation, but it’s a future tool for translators not a replacement for human beings and not a substitute or excuse for not paying professional rates."
Exactly right - except for the "future" part. That's how I use it now.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:15
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
The MTPE trend and practice stem from LSPs - scarcely from their end clients.
A while ago I had an end client who wanted a phone consultation. I explained to them why MTPE won't work at the price they imagined. They said OK, and that they'll have their target language consultant in their company proofread it. Wanted me to just arrange a bilingual table for them, so they can build a TM. Him and his consultant got so tangled up that they started sending me numerous emails during the proofreading process (eg. got tangled up in conversions, index alphabet order in the target language, etc.- things the machine couldn't do). I ignored the emails because they expected them answered for free (they were informed of this in advance, ie. I set boundaries). I basically charged just for the CAT tool bilingual table translated with MT (around $200) for not such a big file.
They got so excited at the opportunity to get a professional translation done cheaply. I hope they enjoyed the proofreading and TM creation process. Perhaps they understood a couple of things after the process (I hope).
| | | | | Perceived value of MT for translators | Jan 23, 2023 |
Philip Lees wrote: The conclusion from that article. "Yes, machine translation is the future of translation, but it’s a future tool for translators not a replacement for human beings and not a substitute or excuse for not paying professional rates." Exactly right - except for the "future" part. That's how I use it now.
The degree of control over MT translators end up with might make all the difference to the length of leverage in the value creation chain:
Passive: third-party MT + PEMT = zero leverage - 'housecleaner' role - no value
(Inter)active: third-party MT + HT [e. g. sub-segment autosuggest] = some leverage - 'operator' role - shared value
Proactive: proprietary MT + HT [e. g. fine-tuned 'Auto-Assemble' or other EBMT mechanism] = maximum leverage - 'expert' role - self-contained value
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 13:15
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Generalization | Jan 23, 2023 |
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
The "world of difference" - I mean the profit margin - is pocketed by LSPs. Their client never get a sniff of that. Above all, the said clients are completely unaware that their preferred translation agency have their own outsourcers by the balls (pardon my French).
I have no doubt that a lot of LSPs will take all the profit (just like they do for plain editing by not having certain translations edited at all), but from time to time I check random agencies' websites just to know what services they provide, and at least some of them offer 'MTPE' as a service, besides translation and editing.
| | | | | It's supply that creates demand | Jan 23, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
The "world of difference" - I mean the profit margin - is pocketed by LSPs. Their client never get a sniff of that. Above all, the said clients are completely unaware that their preferred translation agency have their own outsourcers by the balls (pardon my French). I have no doubt that a lot of LSPs will take all the profit (just like they do for plain editing by not having certain translations edited at all), but from time to time I check random agencies' websites just to know what services they provide, and at least some of them offer 'MTPE' as a service, besides translation and editing.
It's not LSPs that are to be blamed in my opinion, but reckless translators accepting their lousy MTPE projects for peanuts, like beggars, knowing full well they are killing the profession doing so.
Do you seriously think that your plumber (to take the previous comparison) would accept to prostitute himself for a fistful of euros as some translators do though by taking on MTPE projects for less than €15.00 an hour?
I do really think there wouldn't be so many translators complaining they can't succeed in making a decent living by practising their bread-and-butter job, if they weren't so many to prostitute themselves by such lousy MTPE jobs.
And therefore, there wouldn't be so many enticing "MTPE services" on LSPs websites.
It's always this old story of "supply and demand". As the reknowed French ecomist Jean Baptiste Say said: "It is not demand that creates supply, but supply that creates demand."
Moral of the story: No more translators accepting MTPE projects, no more LSPs offering "MTPE services" on glossy websites...
It's time to wake up, guys!
[Modifié le 2023-01-23 20:08 GMT]
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Nicholas Miller
Czech Republic
Local time: 13:15
Member (2014)
Czech to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Excellent, thanks | Jan 23, 2023 |
| | | | Nicholas Miller
Czech Republic
Local time: 13:15
Member (2014)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
It's not LSPs that are to be blamed in my opinion, but reckless translators accepting their lousy MTPE projects for peanuts, like beggars, knowing full well they are killing the profession doing so.
I'm sure that it's also the fact that new, usually younger translators, fresh out of school, are coming along all the time and working for peanuts to get going. Of course, that's something you have to live with.
By the rates some new Far Eastern agencies are offering (from what I've personally seen and been offered here via Proz - before I get accused of anything), I can only assume that they offer cut-price translations as well, but I can't imagine who is accepting those rates or how those agencies are staying in business. No doubt some European agencies are farming out their work out to cheaper outsourcers too.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 13:15
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Good morning. | Jan 24, 2023 |
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
Do you seriously think that your plumber (to take the previous comparison) would accept to prostitute himself for a fistful of euros as some translators do though by taking on MTPE projects for less than €15.00 an hour?
15 euros? I apply a MTPE discount of 30-40% and that still allows for my hourly income of 35 euros. I don't lose money by practicing MTPE.
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
I do really think there wouldn't be so many translators complaining they can't succeed in making a decent living by practising their bread-and-butter job, if they weren't so many to prostitute themselves by such lousy MTPE jobs.
As mentioned above I don't prostitute myself. I'm only using technology to my advantage (and I'm still mainly translating conventionally, by the way).
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:It's time to wake up, guys!
I agree. And that's exactly why I train myself in MTPE and offer MTPE services.
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