| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | being paid only for the words you correct, not all of the words you check and read... Thread poster: Heather Fremont
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 19:40
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
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Heather Fremont wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the world of machine translation, having focused on literary translation and copyediting for many years.
I have just begun working with a very large LSP. We agreed on a rate of three cents per word for proofreading. However, when I was sent a file, I was given an extremely low price based on the match percentages. For a job of 1738 words, I am only paid the full three cents for the words with low match percentage. However, in the notes for the job, I am specifically told to check ad proofread all context and 100% matches as well. I am very confused by this. I come from a copyediting background where I am paid a certain rate per word regardless of how many of those words need corrections.
For a different language service provider I did similar proofreading/MTPE jobs and was paid per source word regardless of how many corrections I actually made.
Is it normal to be paid only for the words that actually need correcting, as opposed to being paid for all of the words that you take the time and cognitive effort to check and read? I cannot afford to read and check thousands of words and only be paid for correcting a few words....can anyone afford to do this??
I hope this makes sense. Thank you for your feedback.
For a proofreading/editing job you should always be paid per word that you have read, or apply an hourly rate. You shouldn't accept anything else.
However, I'm a bit confused since you are talking about 'the world of machine translation'. Proofreading/editing and machine translation post-editing (MTPE) are 2 different jobs. The first is proofreading/editing of a human translation and 3 cents would be a fair agency rate (if you are paid for every word). But the second is machine translation editing and that rate should be at least 60% of your translation rate.
| | | | Jo Macdonald 
Spain
Local time: 19:40
Italian to English
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| A very confusing way of offering a really low rate | Mar 15, 2023 |
Took me several mails to find out that the rate for PEMT we were talking about (in several mails) was in fact the base rate for translations to which they would then apply a generous discount for PEMT. In other words the real rate was that rate we were talking about minus 40%.
It was a very confusing way of offering a really low rate.
I've been in the business 20 years and it took me a while to spot this, I can imagine people just starting falling for things like this h... See more Took me several mails to find out that the rate for PEMT we were talking about (in several mails) was in fact the base rate for translations to which they would then apply a generous discount for PEMT. In other words the real rate was that rate we were talking about minus 40%.
It was a very confusing way of offering a really low rate.
I've been in the business 20 years and it took me a while to spot this, I can imagine people just starting falling for things like this hook, line and sinker.
Lieven Malaise wrote: Jo Macdonald wrote:
• Agreeing to a rate of say 0.06 for PEMT then applying a PEMT discount to that rate This seems really odd. If you have already agreed on a MTPE rate, there can't be another discount. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:40
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Heather Fremont wrote:
I have just begun working with a very large LSP. We agreed on a rate of three cents per word for proofreading. However, when I was sent a file, I was given an extremely low price based on the match percentages. For a job of 1738 words, I am only paid the full three cents for the words with low match percentage.
Proofreading (i.e. proofreading human translations) should always be paid 100% of the rate for 100% of the words, because you have to check all words, even if the original translator was able to make use of fuzzy matching. It is highly unusual to be paid less (for proofreading) for fuzzy matches, unless perhaps they have a system that shows exactly which words were changed by the translator.
In MTPE, being paid less for segments that require fewer changes is a thing, however. I dislike it, because it encourages the translator to make unnecessary changes, but it's not strictly speaking an unfair practise, since the assumption is that you are paid for your time, and fewer changes means less time. However, if your base rate is too low, then it would feel unfair.
However, in the notes for the job, I am specifically told to check ad proofread all context and 100% matches as well. I am very confused by this.
If they want you to check text, they must pay for it. I can understand why they would think that checking a context match or a 100% match would require less work, since you would normally not have to make any changes, and so you only spend time reading (not typing), but it is impossible to know whether such matches would need a lot of work or little work (and you do spend time reading, which you should be paid for). I would not be okay with charging anything less than 70% the full rate for checking context matches and 100% matches.
Is it normal to be paid only for the words that actually need correcting, as opposed to being paid for all of the words that you take the time and cognitive effort to check and read?
This is not common but also not unusual... for MTPE (but not for proofreading/editing human translations). That said, if you charge 3c per word for MTPE, then you are charging very little indeed. MTPE is a type of translation, so it must be charged at a translation rate or something close to a translation rate.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 19:40
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
In MTPE, being paid less for segments that require fewer changes is a thing, however.
Never heard of it. And luckily so, because I wouldn't accept it in a million years. Talking about a race to the bottom.
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| What's unusual? | Mar 15, 2023 |
Sounds to me like the usual way agencies want to pay for CAT/MT-based translation: a sliding scale based on how much effort you have to put in:
10% for 100% matches
25% for XX% matches
50% for XX% matches
100% for XX% matches
As long as you're getting paid a small percentage for reading the bits you don't change, what is the problem?
| | | | Heather Fremont
United States
Local time: 13:40
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | clarification and more context, details | Mar 15, 2023 |
Thank you all for taking the time to reply.
I do not agree with intentionally sabotaging a client. I will instead clarify my rates and if they will not pay what I am worth then I will no longer work with them. I have informed them that if I am expected to read and check all words, I expect to be paid for reading and checking all words, regardless of match percentages. We will see how they respond.
I think that the terminology used by different agencies and LSPs can be confusi... See more Thank you all for taking the time to reply.
I do not agree with intentionally sabotaging a client. I will instead clarify my rates and if they will not pay what I am worth then I will no longer work with them. I have informed them that if I am expected to read and check all words, I expect to be paid for reading and checking all words, regardless of match percentages. We will see how they respond.
I think that the terminology used by different agencies and LSPs can be confusing and some use it to exploit translators. It seems that this agency wants to call MTPE by the name of proofreading in order to pay less. Plus, as I mentioned, they then applied "discounts". I agreed upon the following rates.
Translation: EUR 0.077 (USD $0.082)
Proofreading: EUR 0.03 (USD $0.032)
Post-Editing of MT: EUR 0.0475 (USD $0.051)
General hourly rate: EUR 35.62 (USD $38)
However, after starting the onboarding process there was a little note slipped into one email saying: "FYI: The rate displayed in your profile for PEMT and Translation 2.0 is the base rate. You can see by opening the price here (marked in red) that there is a Special Breakdown applied on the base price so that it is in line with our agreement."
I somehow missed this little note while completing onboarding. The "special price breakdown", ie extremely low rates, is attached here.
Also:
I have done MTPE for another, smaller LSP and was paid USD 0.05 per word for MTPE. They paid per source word regardless of corrections. It actually worked well for me and was profitable for me and I hope to keep working with them.
Proofreading human translation that has already been revised for $0.03 per word does not seem too low, if it is truly a simple proofreading job. For those who said this was too low, I would love to understand more about why you say this!
Many thanks to all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 19:40
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Translation 2.0 | Mar 15, 2023 |
Translation 2.0 ? That probably means it can only be one specific agency (I know them, because they purchased one of my former clients). Or is this specific 'service' offered by more agencies ?
Anyway, if we are talking about the same agency then there is no difference between Translation 2.0 and MTPE.
And don't worry about the rates you have entered, you will be regularly confronted with requests that are systematically below those rates. It's very annoying.
... See more Translation 2.0 ? That probably means it can only be one specific agency (I know them, because they purchased one of my former clients). Or is this specific 'service' offered by more agencies ?
Anyway, if we are talking about the same agency then there is no difference between Translation 2.0 and MTPE.
And don't worry about the rates you have entered, you will be regularly confronted with requests that are systematically below those rates. It's very annoying.
(And brace yourself, because they are planning to introduce AI based 'dynamic pricing', meaning you will only have a vague idea about how the price is calculated)
After being 'on board' for more than a year I only worked once for them, because it was the one time they didn't suggest a ridiculously low price. To be fair, though: acceptance and delivery went smoothly, PM's were reactive and friendly (but their minds are definitely set on 'let's start with a rate as low as possible') and payment was exceptionally fast. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 19:40
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Definitely not too low | Mar 15, 2023 |
Heather Fremont wrote:
Proofreading human translation that has already been revised for $0.03 per word does not seem too low, if it is truly a simple proofreading job. For those who said this was too low, I would love to understand more about why you say this!
So it was a real proofreading job (proofreading and editing are used interchangeably by many on this forum, although they are very different jobs). In that case you are even on the high side. You won't find many agencies that are willing to pay that much for a simple proofreading.
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Josep Vives (X)
Spain
Local time: 19:40
English to Spanish
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| I have seen this before, and I politely declined each time. | Mar 15, 2023 |
I have been offered similar things every once in a while -my position is adamant as I consider this to be essentially a bad practice in the industry coming from not-so-good agencies.
When it comes to reviewing you have to check the content and spend the hours no matter what, even when the content is repeated (and I would like to point out that there are some cases, like UIs and software menus, where a 100% match does not mean the same translation applied blindly). Therefore, as I ha... See more I have been offered similar things every once in a while -my position is adamant as I consider this to be essentially a bad practice in the industry coming from not-so-good agencies.
When it comes to reviewing you have to check the content and spend the hours no matter what, even when the content is repeated (and I would like to point out that there are some cases, like UIs and software menus, where a 100% match does not mean the same translation applied blindly). Therefore, as I have stated many times before, 100% matches cannot receive a discount (or not be charged, more blatantly) when the task is precisely the opposite of skipping them.
What I would do is try to make them understand this and, if they don't, then politely decline their offer.
I hope that helps! ▲ Collapse
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